Which of these SNES RPGs has the 'best' graphics? - 3

Mount · 08-05-2015

Posted by Ash Ketchum

Why do you still exist? You got fired on Graal for being an irrelevant loser, like you are in real life lmao

I wasnt fired? Still staff.

Dusty · 08-05-2015

Posted by MattKan

I think Secrets of Mana has the most artistic value, but there's no place for that kind of art on the SNES. LTTP is the most enjoyable to look at since it doesn't try to be something out of its reach.

What do you mean by this? How does the art of SD3 have no place on the SNES? And what does it mean when you say LttP didn't try to make something out of reach? It's like you're implying SD3 aspired to make graphics the SNES couldn't support, but fell short... but when I look at the game nothing seems to fall short at all.

Draenin · 08-05-2015

Here's how I would rank them, putting everything into consideration, from tilesets to sprite work and so on:

1. Secret of Mana II / Seiken Densetsu III
2. Star Ocean
3. Chrono Trigger
4. Final Fantasy VI
5. Secret of Evermore
6. Breath of Fire II
7. Dragon Quest VI
8. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
9. Earthbound / Mother II

I know Zelda has gotten the most votes, but in terms of graphical work, it's really not that complex. I think it's just being ranked high due to popularity.

Also, like Dusty mentioned, Tales of Phantasia has really great art direction as well. I would probably place it under Star Ocean in the rankings, due to its similarity in style.

And I'd just like to mention Terranigma as well. It's like a better version of Secret of Evermore, and is a little less drab since the majority of SoE is set in a crapsack world.

Posted by MattKan

I think Secrets of Mana has the most artistic value, but there's no place for that kind of art on the SNES. LTTP is the most enjoyable to look at since it doesn't try to be something out of its reach.

That makes no sense whatsoever, as Secret of Mana II / Seiken Densetsu III was actually released near the end of the Super Famicom's lifespan, when they were really pushing the console to its limits. That's like saying games like Super Mario RPG, Bahamut Lagoon, or Treasure of the Rudras had no place on the system either.

MattKan · 08-05-2015

Posted by Dusty

What do you mean by this? How does the art of SD3 have no place on the SNES? And what does it mean when you say LttP didn't try to make something out of reach? It's like you're implying SD3 aspired to make graphics the SNES couldn't support, but fell short... but when I look at the game nothing seems to fall short at all.

As I see it LTTP's graphics have held up better with age. Many of the other games on this poll look bad now because they attempted to be as detailed as possible and clearly wanted to get the absolute most out of the system. Nintendo seemed to recognize that the SNES had very little graphics potential and used a simplistic style that seemed complete in itself. I still think Secret of Mana for example has more artistic value, and if I had owned it back in the day I'm sure I would have thought it was better than Zelda. But given where graphics are now, it seems extremely aged whereas LTTP I think is content in itself

Another example would be Banjo Kazooie. I've seen a lot of people comment that it had better graphics for the N64 than say OoT or SM64, but I think from a legacy perspective this works against it. Rareware tried to get every last ounce of detail out of the art. While at the time it seemed to be a technical feat, I think today it's very easy to look at the graphics and see what they were trying to be as opposed to what they actually were. From that angle, I would say that OoT and SM64 actually have better graphics as I play them today since it's easy to respect them for a complete work in themselves. It's harder for me to appreciate BK's graphics because they're trying to do something that was out of their reach, and it shows now that we have games that have done what Rareware tried so desperately to achieve.

Spoiler

Draenin · 08-05-2015

Simplicity is not inherently better than complexity.

Crono · 08-05-2015

I completely disagree that ALTTP aged better. This is just a bias most of us have formed because of Graal.

Imprint · 08-05-2015

Yeah I think Secret of Mana aged really well. It's still gorgeous pixel art today.

KuyaGabeGraal · 08-06-2015

Chrono Trigger, Secret of mana, and FFVI. I chose FFVI because its more memorable for me

Mount · 08-06-2015

Posted by Draenin

Simplicity is not inherently better than complexity.

Complexity is not inherently better than simplicity either.

Ash Ketchum · 08-06-2015

Posted by Mount

Complexity is not inherently better than simplicity either.

stop trying lmao

Ivy · 08-06-2015

Posted by Mount

Complexity is not inherently better than simplicity either.

Draenin · 08-06-2015

Posted by MattKan

Another example would be Banjo Kazooie. I've seen a lot of people comment that it had better graphics for the N64 than say OoT or SM64, but I think from a legacy perspective this works against it. Rareware tried to get every last ounce of detail out of the art. While at the time it seemed to be a technical feat, I think today it's very easy to look at the graphics and see what they were trying to be as opposed to what they actually were. From that angle, I would say that OoT and SM64 actually have better graphics as I play them today since it's easy to respect them for a complete work in themselves. It's harder for me to appreciate BK's graphics because they're trying to do something that was out of their reach, and it shows now that we have games that have done what Rareware tried so desperately to achieve.

To be honest, the N64 is not a good console to make comparisons with, specifically because it uses a rendering method which often stretched out textures to fit polygons, making those textures very blurry in the process. Every game from Super Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie to Majora's Mask and Perfect Dark had to suffer because of it. If any games out there were 'going out of their reach,' it would probably be the majority of N64 games.

To a great extent, it didn't matter how detailed developers made their game because the hardware limitations got in the way. Games that were simplistic, like SM64 and Diddy Kong Racing tended to look better because they either used no textures at all, or smaller textures meant to be repeated. Whereas if you look at games like Goldeneye 007 or Turok: The Dinosaur Hunter, there are a lot of textures that got very distorted. Game developers certainly wanted to make their games look very good, but the constraints they had to work within made it hard to do that.

People look at the N64 through rose-tinted glasses a lot of the time, and it really wasn't that great of a console. A lot of Nintendo's sales during that time came from the release of Gameboy Color titles, and not from the N64. (32.93 million N64 units sold, vs. 118.69 million GBC units sold.) The number of titles available on it were very limited, and developers working with it often ran into trouble with RAM issues, which is why they had to release the Expansion Pak in the first place. And even then, it didn't fix any issues with how the console renders things.

It definitely lost a lot of sales to Playstation, which used far better rendering methods and sold about 102.49 million units. And if you look at games on that system, the ones released later on definitely outshine the ones released near launch. (For example, compare games like Jumping Flash and Bubsy 3D to Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy IX)

However, this kind of thing doesn't really apply to 2D consoles, because everything was drawn by the hardware in pretty much the same fashion. There are games on 2D systems which are objectively more detailed than others, and picking a game with simpler graphics over a game with more detailed ones is a matter of taste, not talent.

Dusty · 08-06-2015

Should mention that LttP's graphics were dumbed down specifically because of the limitations of the game. In order to make the world as large as it was in LttP there were sacrifices to be made: while other games had 8 colors per tile available, LttP sacrificed 8 colors and instead used a 4 color per tile limitation in order to achieve the large-scale world.

MrSimons · 08-06-2015

I've always adored LttP's graphics (and other Zelda game's graphics from that era), so I voted that. Part of that is definitely because I hate that "traditional RPG" style.

Posted by Stryk

Zelda's similarity to Graal may have gathered it more votes than it would get outside of the Graal community. Not that there's any problem with that, but interesting to consider.
edit: probably should say Graal's similarity to Zelda, rather than the other way around

That's definitely the reason Zelda is winning, can almost guarantee if this was posted on any pixel art forum Secret of Mana would be leading.

rickclops · 08-06-2015

Isn't Super Mario RPG the best looking SNES rpg?

Poll Results: Which of these SNES games has the 'best' graphics?
0%	Secret of Evermore
5.08%	Breath of Fire II
3.39%	Final Fantasy III/VI
23.73%	Secret of Mana II
13.56%	Chrono Trigger
40.68%	The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
1.69%	Star Ocean
0%	Dragon Quest VI
11.86%	Earthbound / Mother II
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

08-05-2015	35
Draenin Magnificent Bastard Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Bermuda Triangle Posts: 463	Simplicity is not inherently better than complexity. Last edited by Draenin; 08-06-2015 at 07:57 PM.

08-05-2015	36
Crono :pluffy: Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 5,946	I completely disagree that ALTTP aged better. This is just a bias most of us have formed because of Graal.

08-05-2015	37
Imprint Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,992	Yeah I think Secret of Mana aged really well. It's still gorgeous pixel art today.

08-06-2015	38
KuyaGabeGraal Temp. Retired Player Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Philippines Posts: 194	Chrono Trigger, Secret of mana, and FFVI. I chose FFVI because its more memorable for me

08-06-2015	43
Dusty Should be fixed. Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 6,359	Should mention that LttP's graphics were dumbed down specifically because of the limitations of the game. In order to make the world as large as it was in LttP there were sacrifices to be made: while other games had 8 colors per tile available, LttP sacrificed 8 colors and instead used a 4 color per tile limitation in order to achieve the large-scale world.

08-06-2015	45
rickclops Studying for graalians Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Seattle Posts: 304	Isn't Super Mario RPG the best looking SNES rpg?