I spent ages doing up a thesis on basing atm but got logged out and mrhghhhr

Most of the points i was talking about were covered BUT i do have some different opinions on a couple of things.

Gp: as it stands i like how it is, having it be accumulated through kills encourages developing your skill over the amount of time you play. As gp takes more effort to get now, i dont think EVERYTHING in the gp shop should be purely cosmetic. I believe gp weapons would be best done as being unique weapons with their own niche usage that arent completely overpowered. For example, doorknocker, flintlock and blowgun are all very unique and arent too op, doorknocker's price increase means not everyone will justify buying it. Things like cbow, models and to a lesser extent, airget, should probably be nerfed. You've made a good start lowering model's fire-rate, but when you look at cbow it is literally just a better versiom of the blowgun in every way when all is said and done. The issue with the "op" gp items is that sure, when not many people have them, its not an issue, but just about everyone would eventually have models and cbows and the last thing we want is shotgun spam and giant arrows flying everywhere. Oh also, maybe add food that can be bought with gp? Just makes sense since alot of people have gp but nothing to spend it on.

I do like the notion of gun-skins and the like. So many of these holidays add random pistols or other guns that add nothing to the game's competetive-side. No one ever uses them and i fail to see the point in going through that effort to code a new weapon that no one will ever use. Just make holiday gun-skins for various gralat weapons and actually give some love to those same gralat weapons.

Oh a small note on hs stuff. Why should hs items be the best weapons in the game? You get hs for doing little events like races or whatever that have nothing to do with pking or basing (other than the team events). it gates off alot of the end-game to most people because they either, don't play on a timezone that gets events hosted or simply just cannot win events because most of them really obscure and meaningless outside of the event house. I do recommend everything in the hs shop should be cosmetic, as in, goofy weapons that arent viable but fun to use, maybe some cool hats and accesories, etc etc. i do not like seeing everyone and their mothers using Nature's Destroyer which costs only 30 hs and is so broken that anyone can use it. Ive seen gangs that have their entire member-base spamming that bow and it just isnt fun at all.

The problem with basing in general is the mindset of people who are too lazy to start wars they cannot finish, they take it too seriously taking any gang v gang battle as a personal attack. Any changes youve made to basing as a whole also seems to have adverse effects; close two bases at a time to encourage more aggression? Instead everyone funnels into 3 gangs rather than actually trying to put up a fight, etc etc . Id start with incentivising pking, have daily/weekly/monthly/all-time leaderboards for pking and reward the top achievers weekly with something (be it gralats, or whatever else), if you reward pking, more people will want to do it. Pretty simple and not an awful way to start promoting aggression, away with the peaces!!! (Although i dont mind some strategic aliances against those peacing behemoths for some hectic 3v3 gang wars)  

Gentlemen,

I was already well-decided to leave this conversation all "Fonzie-Style", but the juicy talk here is just TOO DAMN JUICY!!! hahahaha

As far as I can decipher, we all agree on nearly every topic; and have nearly the same solutions for each and every problem discussed here.

However, there are a few things I can't help but touch on:

Posted by Pikahika~

We arent trying ti make our server male dominance because that would alieanate a huge portain of our playerbase and being "manly" doesnt make things right.

Pika, I never suggested West be made into male-dominant server. Recall my quote: "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"?... in fact, I quite admire Graal for bringing two such heavily-contrasted audiences to a single table; and personally prefer having girls running around in Easter hats than not! ...(any chance on getting some Easter-hat girls in CoD)? ʕ ಠᴥಠʔ

What I was making you aware of is the fact that BECAUSE Graal has many of these feminine social factors, it will naturally attract a more passively-spirited audience (rather male or female)... and naturally manifest a more non-aggressive player base, resulting in this "limp basing society" (West's largest current dilemma); of which, I propose, would not be nearly as prominent- or even existent- if this game's attractive qualities were solely masculine-based. Should I further explain?

Posted by J*

I spent ages doing up a thesis on basing atm but got logged out and mrhghhhr

Posted by Pikahika~

Wow i typed this huge reply to his post and got logged out and didnt get to post it kill me

^ hahaha sorry, my dudes- that frickin' bites!- can relate... many times over.....

As for my two suggestions towards Spar, Pika:

[1.] The addition of a hierarchy of Spar-Edition hats (earned in realistic increments of Spar Wins: 1, 5, 15, 30, etc.)

[2.] Tallying only Spar Wins to elicit a larger spar audience (by easing-off the fail factor).

^ I am most aware of this being off-topic, and did ask permission to state it. I think it's a valid point being (the grand scheme of this thread): to discuss development- it doesn't hurt to add additional points; and furthermore, I'd like to point out that my "nearly-always-dead Spar House" topic also stems from the same origin as your "hardly-ever-aggressive Basing Community": Feminism..... You disagree?

Posted by TomatoPanda

Whippy when did you turn conservative boi welcome to the club

*pink-bear-shakes your big red-panda hand!!!!!

When a half-crazed-orange-tinted millionaire starts yelling "GET HIM THE HELL OUTTA HERE!" at political rallies... yes, that I can get on board with.

Posted by J*

Gp: as it stands i like how it is, having it be accumulated through kills encourages developing your skill over the amount of time you play. I dont think EVERYTHING in the gp shop should be purely cosmetic. I believe gp weapons would be best done as being unique weapons with their own niche usage that arent completely overpowered. For example, doorknocker, flintlock and blowgun are all very unique.

I do agree with that. (big surprise- not haha)

But this restricts the Pk-incentive strictly to inside the bases (unless you get giddy over seeing your red Pk number increase for almost no reason?). We have so many social "non-Pk" zones as is... why not loosen this up a bit?: GP the entire map!

And here, I quote Tomato:

Posted by TomatoPanda

Guns have EVERYTHING to do with basing. The problem west has that its guns system is Quantity over Quality. A Quanitity over Quality system is fun for a couple years in a game but it gets very dull after a while and annoying to players to have to remember 400 different guns on the servers stats. Dont even get me started on the fact that 3/4 of the guns have nothing to do with the servers theme.

We can have our cake and eat it too, boys...

Both a large array and balanced system of guns based on your- how to say- seniority:

"The Pk Gun-Level-Up System" I previously suggested:
0Pk = PeaceKeeper + Nab Knife
10Pk = Cactus Melee
30Pk = '44 Army Colt
60Pk = Pearl Guns
100Pk = Double Barrel
...
1,000Pk = Snubs
10,000Pk = WoodBow
20,000Pk = LeMat
...
40,000Pk = Viper
50,000Pk = CarcanoRifle
60,000Pk = .45Rifle

Etc. Etc. Etc.

And before you jump on me and say that "I think the .45 should be on 75,000Pk" or whatever blah blah... calculating the exact degrees and specifications of this gun hierarchy would certainly be a job in itself... AND as a player of this game, for a few years now, I embarrassingly admit to only using a handful of the guns. Back when the .45 and Carcano were only $20,000, I simply inquired about gun opinions from higher-seniority players + visited the Spar House; thus I've not used (let alone) considered 75% of West's available weapons, AND THEREFORE would have a heap of studying to do before ever taking a genuine crack at properly allocating Ol' West's weapons.

WHEW! OKAY! Just a bit more then I fr gotta get back to my life! ʕ ಠᴥಠʔ

So coupling this Pk Gun Hierarchy with the current GP system, gives us options:

[1.] Using Pk points to earn basic guns instead of purchasing them with money (which makes more sense because Pk = Guns = Reward for aggressive behavior... (V.s. West's current gun-earning system): Gralats = Passive behavior (fishing, farming, mining) = Guns? = no sense).

[2.]Co-op this with GP that earns more quirky, flavorful weapons: doorknocker, flintlock and blowgun + gun skins + apparel.

^ Honestly though, GP for "Specialty Items" is highly unsustainable. This would put intense strain on the developers to either: Constantly produce new combat-mechanic items to meet the demand of earned GP >> OR risk running out of new, highly-desirable GP items to earn <--- this would then result in (what is now) a very-high priced market of options that simply prolong a dedicated-players' reward; which benefits nobody, because like J* said, "You can't purchase GP"... so in cold-hard fact, these intensely-high prices are doing NOTHING for the community.

The only difference between GP and PK is the location in which you kill players: inside or outside of a Base. So why not just use Pk to earn all weapons?

I take into account that GP is to entice Basing Pk... so what if instead, there was a single numeric value that was applicable to the entire gun hierarchy?

Meaning... something like.....

1GP = 1Pk outside of bases

2GP = 1Pk inside of bases

^ if you are indeed looking to entice Basing-Pk... this could be just one of many options.

^ but "GP" would not be "spent"- rather automatically advancing you the guns as you accumulate kills- the "Pk Gun Level System" with the GP parameters above.

Posted by J*

You get hs for doing little events like races or whatever that have nothing to do with pking or basing (other than the team events). it gates off alot of the end-game to most people because they either, don't play on a timezone that gets events hosted or simply just cannot win events because most of them really obscure and meaningless outside of the event house.

^ I hate Events.

WHIPPY AIN'T RUNNIN' 'ROUND NO RAT MAZE TO EARN NO FLIP-FLOPPIN' GUN.

WHIPPY WANNA KILL FOR GUN.

WHIPPY BIG KILL = WHIPPY BIG GUN!!! HUHUHUHUHU *accidentally smacks Pika in the eyelid*

No seriously, guys. Broke asf ideology. Fishing for guns = no sense.

Should be like this:

[1.] Fishing, Farming, Mining = Gralats to buy Hats, Furniture, Accessories, Gun skins + a weekly-stream of hats should be marketed to evoke players to log in during times other than holidays

[2.] Pking = Earning a hierarchy of Guns, based on your Pk's + the GP parameters: (1GP = 1Pk outside of bases || 2GP = 1Pk inside of bases)

^ (meaning that GP = "Pk Points" (more or less) to advance you in the gun hierarchy... restricting earning anything cosmetically to Events and Gralats)

[3.] Events = (High-quality - probable gif) Hats, Accessories, Gun skins

[4.] Spar = Earning a hierarchy of Hats, based on your Spar Wins

[5.] Basing = Basing Rewards: Gang Hat, Melee, Mount, etc. + Additional one monthly item to entice OP gang wars

Am I missing anything? Can anyone dispute this?

Guys, this eats half my day, man. Can't afford to do this again. I can point out that anyone in on this topic actually cares about trying to fix broken things... maybe we should just go be... I dunno..... plumbers? lol... Because, honestly, this entire discussion is worth a hill of beans. Nothing is going to be done, and we damn well know it.

Lastly, @ Tomato

I want you to realize West's gun-ideology options... I believe there are only three:

[1.] West's "Current Gun System"- a rainbow of "anything-goes".

^ (Makes it less boring, but also provides a very unstable combat system)

[2.] A "Core Set of Guns" system i.e. Halo, CoD, GoW.

^ (Boring that all players would have a limited set of guns, but provides a stable combat system)

[3.] My RPG-like "Gun Hierarchy" system

^ (utilizes the same array of guns currently in West- providing flavor among player's seniority range- finally resulting in your [2.]: a core system of guns used by the highest-level players).

Additionally, as for your perpetual Base updates: I'm all for it... though I currently only have beef with Mohawk's tileset... too damn dark. I play Graal outside sometimes. Impossible to see the bullets, man.

Final thing I'd like to point out is the Base layout and structure:

Bank is the only Base with an immediate access door to the Flag-level. All other bases have at least two/three levels of doors/obstacles that precede the Flag Room. If you couple that with these Bases being way-the-frick BFE out in Timbucktoo... then yeah, no wonder everyone Pk's Bank.

I could go into this further, but I'm about beat, man...

Lastly @ Andy

This is a huge swing at melees (ha ha):

I think it's ridiculous to have a melee AND doorknocker. There's too much annoyance when trying to switch weapons during combat. (Doors, laggy players, flag, laggy players, doors, shooting, more shooting) URRGHHH!!! You can eliminate one of these by simply have all melee-weapons act as doorknockers.

Truthfully, melees are only used to hit the flag + kill lag-bursting players.

^ If you add Doorknocker traits to melee weapons, then that's a bit more compact/less annoying

ADDITIONALLY... All melee weapons should HAVE THE SAME DAMAGE OUTPUT + GENERAL STATS.

Why?

Think of all the useless melees that you'd like to use, but can't because of their crap stats! A remedy would be like our gun fix: JUST HAVE MELEE SKINS.

I want to use a flipping Cactus Melee, BUT CAN'T 'CUZ STATS. I want a Cactus Melee skin, okay?

Last note about this: Melees are crap in terms of actual combat. I think shotguns should act like shotguns in FPS videogame: short-range + high damage... this would essentially act as a "practical melee" replacement.

^because this game lag too dang much to actual kill peeps wit da melee, okay? OKAY!

Lastly @ Mr. Pika

Thank you for hosting this topic, man; and as much as I'd like to continue to discuss these issues with you, I can't. I can't afford the time.

I do say "Best of luck". I hope I've contributed in a productive sense. And I'd say "See ya in West!"... but literally, I've stopped playing.

Who knows! If we see some turn-around, it may be worth coming back!  

As much as i agree with most things whippy, i think money = buy guns hoo america, does make sense. If guns were ONLY attainable through pks then we'd have a whole lot of sweaty tryhards and probably a fair bit of toxicity. It also limits what you can do right from the get-go. Minimal diversity gets stale, using the same weapon or weapon type forever + ever causes burnout pretty quick.

The issue with sparring isnt that losses are tracked, you can just hide your stats. The issue is the general reception before and after sparring. Its toxic. Like, Chernobyl met Nagisaki, had really angry reproduction, and made a really angry kid that bullies people for their lunch momey in grade-school-type toxic. To me, toxic isnt fun. Also as a personal gripe i dont see how a square box fits as a spar arena for gun-slingin'. It works with classic sure, but with the box arena being as it is, 99 percent of players rush straight to the bottom of the arena and hug it, which is effective stupidly (i wont go into detail why its effective but its to do with the hitboxes).

But back to basing. I dont see a reason why only getting gp in bases is a bad thing. This funnels the pkers into a few places where they can violently shoot at other like-minded pkers. Ever pked outside of bases (and i dont mean spawn killing literally outside of bases)? It sucks. The low player count and the big map means the entire player base is mostly spread out if not in-front of saloon that is.

I forget what else to note here but im sure ill forget something and then not add it because im lazy

Oh yeah melee skins. I like the idea but small problem. Youd have no idea what melee someone is using, what if some guy disguised his super hs melee of utter destruction as a cactus melee or something, sounds kinda fiunny typing it actually but it would be chaos.  

Posted by J*

Like, Chernobyl met Nagasaki, had really angry reproduction, and made a really angry kid that bullies people for their lunch money in grade-school-type toxic.

^ This, J*, makes me feel like an idiot x9,000... How I forgot this extreme catfish talent existed in my own back yard?! I dunno!... Got something cooking- would like to throw some concepts your way. Forgot your number. Meet me behind the gym... and bring some coffee.

IN OTHER NEWS... good points, good points.... ('cuz people always say things twice on television as their voices trail off)... Punching holes in my forgetfulness!

Especially the outside Pk... I forgot- there's always that one jackweed going total apesh*t on his horse with a shotgun.

And about hiding stats- I've only done this like twice in my entire West career, so that was an honest blind-spot *adjusts mirror*

About the melee skins- only if all melees would have the same stats- in accordance with Tomato's "core gun set" suggestion. Lmfao but yeah- "OHH DER HER COME DA CACTUS MELEE!" **SHHRRKKKIIIINNKKK!** head flies off and hits the opposite wall*

*also, intense side-agree with the sparring boxes... it's all really just a bummer, man... how to fix West? *packs a bag of baseball bats in my car - drives to Texas* <--- (Graal server location, correct?)... if not, you get the joke.

Money guns, Pk guns... okay okay- I dunno- seemed like a good thought... RPG elements... DEPTH AND COMPLEXITY. ANYTHING THAT ISN'T THIS GAME. TALK ALL WE WANT. NO DEVELOPERS LISTENING. NO SAVING IT. RED ALERT. YELLOW ALERT (if you have deuteranomaly) *PUNCHES THE BIG RED "EJECT" BUTTON*... oh wait, that was Tomato's face..... *PUNCHES THE OTHER BIG RED "EJECT" BUTTON!!!*  

Theres actually some good points here but theres 2 major factors you guys are forgetting. First off. Most of these arent minor vhanges you guys are asking for an entire overhaul and new system thats a huge task that would take a long and i mean long time to actually get into practice. Meanwhile during that time were stuck with the same basing issues thats why im suggesting small changes small changes give a bit of freshness and give everyone time to work on big things.

But second you have to remember we are primarily a volunteer staff base. From levels to graphics sure if we wanted we can pump out huge amounts of content but 2 things will happen either 1 major burnouts or 2. A whole bunch of mediocore work. If you want good stuff it takes time.

One poimt i really liked and wsnt to see if we can get going affective soon wouls be the gun skins i 100% agree whats the point of having holiday guns with the same horrid stats just rly meant for cosmetics when we could instead work on skins for the already used guns that way. It cuts down on the number of guns on the server seeing as alot of these guns have similar stats anyway and the only reason you choose 1 over the other is cosmetic it would be better to just have skins instead. Less work for scripters less work for gani ( still same amount of graphics work though ahaha).  

Ok now that all the fun ideas are done let me actually tell you how to "fix" basing

Three things MUST be done to make basing enjoyable and skill based. These arent hard things. Very small things id imagine.

1. Nerf Pump Shotty. Seriously, why hasnt this been nerfed yet? Its ridiculous. Costs relatively nothing and any random can pick it up and mindlessely spam the entire level just by standing still and shooting. This game doesn't need broken spread weapons. Not all shotguns need nerfing, Rustle shotgun is fine, it shoots in a more focused fire which demands more of a skill-based mindset (loosely speaking, its still a shotgun)

2. Nerf Natures Destroyer. A stupid cheap hs weapon that everyone has, requires little to no skill and is so annoyingly op that it doesnt make sense to be only 30 hs. Btw the solution here is not "oh lets make ND 50hs instead then" or something. No, its too late for that, nearly everyone is spamming this thing and its out of control. You cannot dodge between the arrows and if one of the arrows so much as clips you you take nearly 1/5 of your health, thats not fun. Nowadays i see entire gangs of people spamming only this weapon (or pump shotgun) and just causing utter bullethell chaos.

3. "Miniguns" Sandshell-gun and egg-launcher... Really? Who thought of this as a good idea for basing? 5 people can now all run up and press against the front of the flag and spam these weapons eventually taking it without fail. Absolutely no skill whatsoever and its just plain boring. Its ruined tactical base taking in every way conceivable. Why work down the opposing side slowly but surely and eventually taking the flag when you can send a bunch of scrubs to kamikazee the flag and take it instantly? It shouldnt work, but it does. Make it so Shellgun and Egg Launcher bullets don't deal flag damage and i assure you basing will be more enjoyable

the "oh no too much peacing" is practically old news now. The only gang that has peaced everyone is essentially Legion which is silence 2.0. The gang im currently in is constantly warring and we still maintain a home base. Theres over a dozen gangs on the server at the moment all trying to home a base. Its great to some degree but the only thing stopping people are the stupid weapons that just shouldnt be in the game. (Don't get me wrong though, peacing is still an issue as always, but its not, in my opinion, the biggest issue with basing atm)


If you want to "fix" basing, thats what needs to be done at the bare minimum. Dont worry about the fancy new system suggestions and gun-skins. After coming back from a session of aggressive basing i found that the major thing deterring this way of playing is the "cancerous" weapons that plague the game. There are a couple but the ones i listed are the major ones that need some attention balance-wise.

If nothing else id like atleast one of these things to actually happen rather than gun-skins or whatever else. There is plenty of reason to base for those who seek it but there are some weapons that (although sound silly) really do ruin the experience. Thanks for reading  

To be honest, I don’t think you should try so say much about basing if you don’t base  

Posted by OlWestPlayer

To be honest, I don’t think you should try so say much about basing if you don’t base

If it was a who based the longest contest id be the most wise one here on this lel  

I think adding an accessory for 500 basing fort ownership would be neat and give a moral boost to baser to achieve atleast 1.5k  

Posted by GohanTheElf

I think adding an accessory for 500 basing fort ownership would be neat and give a moral boost to baser to achieve atleast 1.5k

We need to figure out how to get them to go beyond 1.5k  

Id imagine the reason most people stop at 1.5 is a mix of burnout (1500 hours is alot of hours) and no one really caring about mounts, perhaps a 4k accessory might encourage more players?  

I think 4k for an acessory seems a lot  

Point 1
Add Ping Limit! People Lag on Purpose or are Australian ruins the basing experience
Point 2
Make Food 1 Gralats
Point 3
Food disabled inside bases + outside (outside part of gmap name where base is located)
Point 4
Models nerfed...Nerf Blow Pipe aswell/
(cbow since its harder to get nbow shouldnt be equal in power)
[Point 5
Add more bases why?
Ol West doesn't have many players but if we have merely a few bases it means alllll the people join the same gangs whereas if more bases the population is spread making it easier for new people to claim one base because less players inside each base
Point 6
Make GP items cheaper + Weaker
Point 7
Make the fist stacked instead of fast only so it wont be abused to rush flags
Point 8
Add freebies if one takes a base like 3x cheap food, 250x ammo, 1 hr revive
Point 9
Bigger bases would make it more fun since it requires a little bit more skill instead of rushing,lagging,spamming gp/shotguns, healing
Point 10
Remove healing beds at BattleField and re-add healing water at Mohawk
Point 11
Mining at MH gives double mining exp, fishing at bf double fish exp, blackwood double firemaking exp...why? Because its like 2-3 rocks inside mh which also promotes mining + u get double exp for waiting times
Point 12
Make gp a turn-in activity
You collect gp through kills! Grab a NPC and he checks if you have any pk rewards/gp items(mainly the gp guns)! And it gives you the gp points. But! Kills of the same people are duplicates and wont be awarded gp by the NPC (must appear 2 different graalids in the list or itd counted as duplicate kills)! If you have gp items/pk rewards you will have from now on only ½ of the gp points...if you have for example cbow and models it will be ¼ and if pk guns 1/5.
Point 13
Its commonly known...spar is quiet since...basically almost ever! Perhaps award 4 gps per spar kill in streak spar to encourage "skilled" play
Point 14
At events option that players can choose either 10k GP or 1 HS/-CTF awards no hs pieces but only 1k gp from winning.

More stuff!!

Am just brabbling stuff...Dont mind the grammar it pops in I pop down it in words...?...!

7k Gang Hat kindoff Useless, for example second place GST was merely a hat...Gang hats in west became useless since there's over 20 gangs with 1.5k hours...Winning GST means you're the best of the best of west doesn't add up, anyway!
What if! Since we got no gas nor Dynamite (in shops) that a 7k gang hat/GST Champions Hat! That makes you immune versus GP Items!!! BUT! BUT! It also forbids one of using a GP item as well whilst wearing the GST/7k gang hat. Making it stand-out from ordinary 1.5k hats.

Final Note...Mainly add ping limit or lagging disables one from receiving gp + Make fist stacked so the speed wont affect the flag + No food (makes it fun)

On your question to make basing more challenging? 1. Do all the common ideas of mine and others memtioned OR....
Increase movement speed inside bases!!!!! For fast-paced play, where guns shoot slower to balance the speed and shotguns dont work.




To those that wonder why hs items are better then gp. Or that the spar guns are way better then the pk guns?

This is why
1.1 Pk means you can just randomly fire inside bases/-outside and get a kill, 0% skill required. If you look you'll see most top pkers right now are mainly always running+use food+(few cheat by vpn/lag)

1.2 Spar means you need 100% skill
(unless you boost or go against new players) whereas you have to win a 1 vs 1 with no running or healing and if you lag you get meleed and it counts as a loss. You have to be alert every match until you can afford spar guns. Simply more effort.

2.1 GP is similar to PK ... Just run inside Blaze out your guns and see it rain gp, hence ask any decent sparrer that guns are of no excuse! people can out match cbow or other guns with merely a starter pistol, it only means you have to put effort like spar and can't just spam mindlessly.

2.2 HS is similar to spar...(Exclusive) You have to win from all the other players competing for it, these are mini-games and in every game these award special items that usually are better then other rewards as you have to win for example 30 times that's out beat...80-100 people in a race? And if you're bad at races you practice and if you end up third always. Move on to pc it makes you a little bit faster in races.

The difference between these categories is all in the effort.
Pk gives you more targets and chances then spar/events whereas you die you cant run back and finish the job, no! You have to replay it all.

That's why Digging Events/Arena's usually has more Pkers/Basers
And GST/Spar Tourneys having the Event/Spar players.