Posted by Warhawk

Thor I wish you would just use the regular hit detection, this thing you're trying is no beuno, and I mean that with all due respect.

Can't tell whether default HD is serverside now, but it would make sense if it was. If anyone really wanted to implement a serverside HD in a custom system that was better than what I had implemented, you'd need to be able to test an area for players (serverside) for a specified period of time, spawn an NPC for every player, or essentially multiplex my original method across NPCs.

Flashback to my solution: When a player used their weapon, a single global NPC would essentially warp to the coordinates on a schedule and test if any player was in a hitbox. There was no way at the time to specify a duration for this kind of thing, which is probably still the case.

I don't know about the possibility of having an NPC spawn for every player, but when there is an upper limit to the number of people allowed to use weapons in a level, you could potentially accomplish this by adding NPCs to each level (e.g. 2 for every 1v1 spar room) and having them use the trigger that moves them and potentially playertouchsme events.

Multiplexing my original solution would be the same thing, but with a fixed number of global NPCs attempting to fill the time gaps depending on demand (i.e. lots of overlapping weapons usage is less reliable than if there were fewer people using weapons at the same time than there were global NPCs to handle HD).

Edit: I never moved recoil/blink off of Master Storm's systems (I assume Thor did), so if you're talking about that I don't have anything to offer. I pretty much reverse engineered everything else movement-related from the default systems, and I can't imagine Thor didn't take advantage of looking at my code when redesigning the movement system, potentially leaving recoil as something no one ever reverse engineered.  

Due to the fact there is still a common belief that GtA's HD is serverside, I will take this opportunity to point out that both GtA's and Default hit detection are 100% clientside, and that absolutely no code remains from previous hit detection or recoil systems. In fact the amount of code that was either re-used or adapted from pre-wipe Classic (2009) is negligible.  

not read through thread again, but wasn't graal the adventure coming to fb client?  

Here's an idea: nested hitboxes. Instead of all damage being equal, you take more damage the deeper you are into the hitbox nest. Then have sword upgrades extend the ranges of the inner-hitboxes.

Posted by Thor

Due to the fact there is still a common belief that GtA's HD is serverside, I will take this opportunity to point out that both GtA's and Default hit detection are 100% clientside, and that absolutely no code remains from previous hit detection or recoil systems. In fact the amount of code that was either re-used or adapted from pre-wipe Classic (2009) is negligible.

So did you reverse engineer everything from the default client after I already did even though there was code available for you to look at? You likely have done plenty of reverse engineering that I didn't do, as would kind of be helpful for implementing clientside HD behavior without everyone complaining that it's not Classic enough. I've also noticed a few aesthetic changes from defaults, particularly in gani handling.  

Posted by deadowl

So did you reverse engineer everything from the default client after I already did even though there was code available for you to look at? You likely have done plenty of reverse engineering that I didn't do, as would kind of be helpful for implementing clientside HD behavior without everyone complaining that it's not Classic enough. I've also noticed a few aesthetic changes from defaults, particularly in gani handling.

Not at all, and having had a look now I can not find remnants of any clientside damage systems, only serverside ones.

And it's funny that you mention aesthetic changes, as there has actually been a very experienced sparrer who used the rate at which steps.wav sound plays as a reason to suggest that the hit detection is different to default.  

How about everything I did that wasn't baked in in the first place? You independently decided that there should be multiple camera modes and that the C key should toggle them? That shops should have a uniform camera/selection system? That players in narrow spaces shouldn't block other players' passage? That a player's char is in a spotlight surrounded by darkness when they die? Having stone-resembling turtles as baddies? That simply attacking another player when you're a saint should cause a loss of sainthood rather than having to kill that player? That there be PK points/ranks and Spar points/ranks? You decided that bushes grow as they respawn? You independently reverse-engineered Graal's odd pathfinding/side movement, AP system, and gani precedence? You requested that stefan add the functions findareaplayers and methods for determining player spar rating among other things?

I'm sure you've done a fine job refactoring everything to your liking, but at least some of your code uses the same constants that was originally in the code I had written. Of course I might have just misread and realized you're talking about clientside damage systems, and that's all your baby, but I get the impression that you don't want to credit me for anything I worked on.  

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTION MASSOKRE

YOUR STATUE WILL BE WHERE NOBODY CAN SEE IT  

Posted by Skyzer

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTION MASSOKRE

YOUR STATUE WILL BE WHERE NOBODY CAN SEE IT

Better put it on an unlisted server then.  

Posted by deadowl

Better put it on an unlisted server then.

:^)  

This should be in the Development Section /movethread  

Posted by deadowl

How about everything I did that wasn't baked in in the first place? You independently decided that there should be multiple camera modes and that the C key should toggle them? That shops should have a uniform camera/selection system? That players in narrow spaces shouldn't block other players' passage? That a player's char is in a spotlight surrounded by darkness when they die? Having stone-resembling turtles as baddies? That simply attacking another player when you're a saint should cause a loss of sainthood rather than having to kill that player? That there be PK points/ranks and Spar points/ranks? You decided that bushes grow as they respawn? You independently reverse-engineered Graal's odd pathfinding/side movement, AP system, and gani precedence? You requested that stefan add the functions findareaplayers and methods for determining player spar rating among other things?

I'm sure you've done a fine job refactoring everything to your liking, but at least some of your code uses the same constants that was originally in the code I had written. Of course I might have just misread and realized you're talking about clientside damage systems, and that's all your baby, but I get the impression that you don't want to credit me for anything I worked on.

Out of everyone who developed on Classic post NPC-Server and pre 2009 wipe (including myself), I would say that you are by far the one who deserves the most credit.

To answer your question however, some of these updates you mention were changes which I ended up encountering the need for naturally (such as players not blocking in tight spaces), or systems with a similar purpose that I ended up making independently of yours (such as spar/pk ranks, sainthood handling), or functionality that I could have just as easily implemented a custom algorithm for (spar rating, ap etc), or entirely irrelevant to the current systems (side movement).

These are also fairly peripheral updates which didn't revolutionise the server, aren't looked back on with fond memories by players, and don't cause visitors of the current server to salivate.

Not to discredit your efforts, particularly as they came at a bad time under difficult circumstances and systems, but it would take a lot more to convince me that you've had a significant bearing on the standard of the current server.  

Posted by Thor

Out of everyone who developed on Classic post NPC-Server and pre 2009 wipe (including myself), I would say that you are by far the one who deserves the most credit.

To answer your question however, some of these updates you mention were changes which I ended up encountering the need for naturally (such as players not blocking in tight spaces), or systems with a similar purpose that I ended up making independently of yours (such as spar/pk ranks, sainthood handling), or functionality that I could have just as easily implemented a custom algorithm for (spar rating, ap etc), or entirely irrelevant to the current systems (side movement).

These are also fairly peripheral updates which didn't revolutionise the server, aren't looked back on with fond memories by players, and don't cause visitors of the current server to salivate.

Not to discredit your efforts, particularly as they came at a bad time under difficult circumstances and systems, but it would take a lot more to convince me that you've had a significant bearing on the standard of the current server.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias

Players not blocking in narrow spaces was since baked into the default system, at least on iClassic. Graal existed for almost a decade without systematically doing anything about idling players blocking narrow spaces. I don't see how you would have come up with the same idea naturally, specifically because there is never a player count high enough on Graal the Adventure for it to be apparent. If iClassic hadn't recycled that feature, there would be significant problems at its current player counts. It was essential in scaling from dozens of players to thousands of players. I thought blocking in narrow spaces was bad enough of an issue with fewer than 100 players. It wasn't even the best implementation, but it certainly helped a lot. For a cleaner implementation, it shouldn't have required sending additional information over the network, which would prevent lag from being an issue. It was just convenient to tack onto other nonblocking states that needed to be communicated over the network. If I were to have implemented clientside hit detection, I would have used pretty much the same approach.

Spar/PK Ranks: Apparently this was another concept that was good enough to be borrowed by multiple servers. I wouldn't find it necessary for anyone to implement it the same way I did. I'm guessing by stating that you implemented it independently, you moved away from logarithmic ranking? That wasn't even unique. I was looking for something well-established, and the particular parameters of a logarithmic ranking system looked good. The concept was what was the most important. Meanwhile, I have no idea what differentiates your ranking system. Competitive ranking was a new concept to Classic, but it certainly wasn't a new concept outside of Graal.

I probably would have skipped spar ratings if the sparring community wasn't adamant about having the old system back. There were also complaints about losing sainthood after hitting another player once instead of only losing it when killing another player.

don't cause visitors of the current server to salivate.

I would counter that by pointing out that you removed all of the quests I added, never followed through with the quests that were ready for release once global milestones were reached (e.g. baddies), and wiped the server in its entirety. But what do you mean by visitors of the current server? You mean the people that popped in that one time when UN was down?  

Posted by deadowl

Players not blocking in narrow spaces was since baked into the default system, at least on iClassic. Graal existed for almost a decade without systematically doing anything about idling players blocking narrow spaces. I don't see how you would have come up with the same idea naturally, specifically because there is never a player count high enough on Graal the Adventure for it to be apparent. If iClassic hadn't recycled that feature, there would be significant problems at its current player counts. It was essential in scaling from dozens of players to thousands of players. I thought blocking in narrow spaces was bad enough of an issue with fewer than 100 players. It wasn't even the best implementation, but it certainly helped a lot. For a cleaner implementation, it shouldn't have required sending additional information over the network, which would prevent lag from being an issue. It was just convenient to tack onto other nonblocking states that needed to be communicated over the network. If I were to have implemented clientside hit detection, I would have used pretty much the same approach.

I don't see how any of this is relevant as this feature was implemented within our movement system before iClassic even existed. The reason why this went so long without being addressed elsewhere on Graal is that (to my knowledge) every other server uses/used default functions for detecting wall/blocks, and the functionality of default movement went ages without being updated. When you consider that GtA has its own scripted conditions for determining whether a player should block, it shouldn't be surprising that this condition would be considered naturally.

Posted by deadowl

Competitive ranking was a new concept to Classic, but it certainly wasn't a new concept outside of Graal.

My point entirely.

Posted by deadowl

I would counter that by pointing out that you removed all of the quests I added, never followed through with the quests that were ready for release once global milestones were reached (e.g. baddies), and wiped the server in its entirety.

Every quest was removed, yours, mine, the one DC & Kevin added. There is no conspiracy here to undermine your efforts, it was a total server wipe and these have since been replaced by quests that numerous respectable community members have said are the best Graal has ever seen.

There were no unreleased quests which were near ready for release with baddies provided, there was a quest supposedly for Avalon which had a key/lock system and a neat leaf-on-water ride, but even with baddies would still have fallen somewhat short of being releasable. There are several assets such as graphics/ganis which were salvaged such as the Stone Turtles you mentioned, but other than that it is mostly empty shell levels.

Posted by deadowl

But what do you mean by visitors of the current server? You mean the people that popped in that one time when UN was down?

13644 unique accounts have logged in since we began storing accounts within a database in 2010. This is probably not a lot compared to active servers but significant nonetheless.

There are 504 unique accounts that have at least 1 GC ticket.

Our first dungeon style quest was Zol's Toilet, which has been completed by 1023 unique accounts.

This has not required UN to go down either, for a couple of months throughout the previous summer we had between 10 - 25 players online with events hosted regularly while remaining un-listed. Is it really worth making snide comments over what are ultimately peripheral features when I have tried to give you reasonable credit?  

Posted by Thor

There were no unreleased quests which were near ready for release with baddies provided, there was a quest supposedly for Avalon which had a key/lock system and a neat leaf-on-water ride, but even with baddies would still have fallen somewhat short of being releasable. There are several assets such as graphics/ganis which were salvaged such as the Stone Turtles you mentioned, but other than that it is mostly empty shell levels.

How about these two?

• http://www.graalians.com/forums/show...5&postcount=41
• http://www.graalians.com/forums/show...3&postcount=42

Edit: Now that I think about it, there was also that awesome cavern maze to Kull's that maximus_asinus made.

Edit 2: Also, I believe Sardon's Tower had been rescripted with the sole exception of baddies. I believe the first set of quests I wanted to release consisted of the Castle Quest, Gnome Caves, Kull's Castle, and Sardon's Tower.

Is it really worth making snide comments over what are ultimately peripheral features when I have tried to give you reasonable credit?

 

lol