Posted by Azrael

He's just jelly. I don't bash him at what he's done to Classic PC. I suppose our staff are more mature in that aspect.

lol whats there to bash? hes making a quality game. its got an excellent story mode, and the quests are so much fun! and how would you feel if someone comes along, takes most of the work youve done (iclassic took a ton of levels from the classic server), then called it the same thing as your game, but makes it terrible from there on out. do you know how many people go onto that server thinking theyre playing iclassic on pc? they all go up to him and ask can i b admin? theres really nothing to be jelly about. him and his small group of developers have accomplished more than iclassic has with its massive staff. and i wouldnt exactly call your staff mature. while most of them are fired now, you guys did hire healy, slim, wafflez, and a bunch of other trainwreck admins and gps.

and tyler, we can only hope  

Posted by Godzilla

lol whats there to bash? hes making a quality game. its got an excellent story mode, and the quests are so much fun! and how would you feel if someone comes along, takes most of the work youve done (iclassic took a ton of levels from the classic server), then called it the same thing as your game, but makes it terrible from there on out. do you know how many people go onto that server thinking theyre playing iclassic on pc? they all go up to him and ask can i b admin? theres really nothing to be jelly about. him and his small group of developers have accomplished more than iclassic has with its massive staff. and i wouldnt exactly call your staff mature. while most of them are fired now, you guys did hire healy, slim, wafflez, and a bunch of other trainwreck admins and gps.

and tyler, we can only hope

Classic is not Thor's. No one took anything from him, the problem is he acts as though Classic is his baby and that he did so much for it and that Stefan was wrong to make an iPhone server from it, when it fact it was Stefan's creation from the start.

I don't really like iPhone Classic, and if Thor wants to take a jab at it whatever... but the problem is nearly every post from Thor on the official forums is some sarcastic jab at iClassic, and he constantly adds horrible insults in the game. One? Meh, fine. But there's way too many on the server, and honestly they're not even funny or creative. They're just... childish.  

I think he is just frustrated how it's turned out, how he can make this great server and such, while Stefan is concentrating on iclassic for profits. While I agree he seems to feel like he owns and made it all, and hates to see the potential wasted and Stefan abandoning it.

He is a bit bitter and upset, but with what he has to deal with its easy to understand why he is fed up. Because he can't stand Stefan, his work is ignored, and he cant get the server where he wants without Stefan, and he is too afraid about what Stefan will do with his and others work...

It's quiet sad really, image how much better graal iclassic would be with him as head of quests and storyline.  

It's actually quite amazing. 1,400 players is a very good average for an app game. I've seen other games go from thousands of players to just a few and iClassic has maintained a good amount of players over time. Quite an accomplishment in my opinion.  

Posted by Higbey

I think he is just frustrated how it's turned out, how he can make this great server and such, while Stefan is concentrating on iclassic for profits. While I agree he seems to feel like he owns and made it all, and hates to see the potential wasted and Stefan abandoning it.

He is a bit bitter and upset, but with what he has to deal with its easy to understand why he is fed up. Because he can't stand Stefan, his work is ignored, and he cant get the server where he wants without Stefan, and he is too afraid about what Stefan will do with his and others work...

It's quiet sad really, image how much better graal iclassic would be with him as head of quests and storyline.

A lot of people are bitter and upset about the decisions Stefan makes, me included. However, putting petty jabs all over your server is just tasteless and his attempts aren't even funny. It's more like "LOOK AT ME I HATE iCLASSIC!"

Stefan has taken a lot of work and effort of players and turned it into a profit that many have never seen, and you know what? I don't think much of it is Thor's work at all. Now, I'm not trying to say that there are people who deserve to be bitter and Thor does not... but seeing the only thing Thor ever say or do being whines about iClassic is annoying to say the least. He needs to get the **** over it or quit, or approach it in a more constructive/organized manner rather then these stupid "lol there's an iPhone in the trash can!!!!" approaches.  

Posted by Dusty

Classic is not Thor's. No one took anything from him, the problem is he acts as though Classic is his baby and that he did so much for it and that Stefan was wrong to make an iPhone server from it, when it fact it was Stefan's creation from the start.

I don't really like iPhone Classic, and if Thor wants to take a jab at it whatever... but the problem is nearly every post from Thor on the official forums is some sarcastic jab at iClassic, and he constantly adds horrible insults in the game. One? Meh, fine. But there's way too many on the server, and honestly they're not even funny or creative. They're just... childish.

well thats fair, i mean thor didnt make the whole map, and he does complain about stefan a lot. i think his problem is mostly it ruined his good name. and id say his server insults are very funny and creative. he even made the level UN style to show how iclassic takes bits from each server. you know all those morphs you love? zodiac. hats? spread out through each server community. map? classic. and theres only 2 that i know of on his server...  

http://qkme.me/35mo3z

Also, what Dusty said.  

Dusty pretty much sums it up. Thor has done pretty much nothing in terms of Classic. In fact, the copy of Classic that iClassic is built off of is pre-Thor. He had nothing to do with it development wise at that time.

I can honestly say that I did do some of the work back in the day that made it in one of the packs we used to fuse together iClassic. This was not my idea. I was requested to do this, so don't try to whine at me about it. We have done more with less in regards to our version of Classic than any other version.

Oh yes, there has been many versions of Classic. Every manager to step foot on Classic PC changed the server. Thor insisting that what we used was his couldn't be any wronger. Thor is Manager of Classic PC - not owner. Stefan is owner, and has the right to do whatever the heck he wants. If Stefan decides to turn Classic PC to a brownish-poop color, then so be it. Nobody can do anything. Likewise, if Stefan decides to turn iClassic PC into pink and purple hearts and clouds, then so be it. I can't say I'd stick around for either, but hey.

To top it off, we haven't released much "Classic" content. What we have, we (I) have had to go through level by level to ensure each script is GS2. Development is slow due to this, and the fact that we have to support two servers that are different enough that it takes double the amount of time to do work.

UN style? There's no such thing. The tile styling that Unholy Nation utilizes is a combination of old and new. That server didn't hop out of the womb like that - in its early days, it looked exactly like Classic. Developers eventually moved to the style that is dubbed "UN" or "New". Tell me, is Zodiac using "UN Style"?

Please, if you're going to comment on how servers turn out, then read up on your history a bit. I can guarantee you that you know less about Classic than I do. I have been around these parts for the better part of 13 years. I started and loved the hell out of Classic. That's my home. iClassic is not Classic. It's a hybrid.

Sometimes I think Thor is funny. Most of the time I think he takes it too far. Nobody likes to listen to someone complain non-stop, and frankly, that's usually what I see from him when I venture onto the Graal forums - a rare endeavor. If it is about him missing Stefan's attention, well, suck it up. Stefan has his agenda and goes where he wants. I can't say that every time I ask him to work on a project he has time to do it. You don't see me whining or crying to the world. He's accomplished some cool, neat stuff on Classic. But frankly, the server is dead. I wish nothing more to see it rise from the ashes, but there's just no hope there. The minute a server is taken off of Classic Hosting, it's done. That's how things roll. I have seen some awesome servers come and go based solely on this.

tl;dr: Stop trying to make a point in an argument that you have absolutely no knowledge of.  

I smell Thor  

Posted by Azrael

He's just jelly.

Posted by Godzilla

theres really nothing to be jelly about.

Quite simple.

Posted by Azrael

I suppose our staff are more mature in that aspect.

Remember that time where you posted on the official forums, making an extraordinary claim that I had been banning players purely for the reason that they were iPhone players, then when I asked you to clarify all you could muster in response was "well someone told me you did"?

Posted by TylerMysTe

The way I see it though iClassic is doing better as far as the amount of people playing it than the PC.

Posted by Pimpsy G.

Thor can jab at iclassic all he wants, but in the end classic pc will never get 10% of the player count classic iphone has.

It's somewhat pointless to make playercount comparisons between a platform which:

1. Can be played for free to a larger extent, with additional charges being much cheaper.
2. Essentially has its advertisement handled for it by Apple.
3. Has much less competition in terms of other games on the platform.
4. Has a purchase method more open to young people.

And a platform which:

1. Can be played for free to a much lesser extent, where the price of a full subscription is excessive.
2. Has received no advertisement, even one time where Graal was listed on a top games website, Graal was removed from the list after Unixmad bizarrely threatened legal action against the site.
3. Is a much smaller fish among the relevant market.
4. Has been terribly mismanaged and neglected for a very long time.
5. Has a purchasing method which is more exclusive to adults.

Although having said that, achieving 10% isn't beyond the furthest realms of possibility and would nonetheless be something to be proud of.

Posted by Dusty

Classic is not Thor's. No one took anything from him, the problem is he acts as though Classic is his baby and that he did so much for it

I have never claimed that Classic is entirely my own, I can even admit that it irks me when somebody suggests such a thing.
It should be visible enough through our work that the server is re-using and expanding on a lot of old ideas, characters and themes. I have always paid tribute to past developers, and maintained that our work is aimed towards emulating past styles with a more modern standard and streamlined approach to development.

Posted by Dusty

Stefan was wrong to make an iPhone server from it, when it fact it was Stefan's creation from the start.

The idea that I believe it is wrong for Stefan to have created an iPhone server of Classic is utter nonsense and a complete fabrication, it is simply down to the execution of it.

While it can be argued Stefan is the creator of Graal, in terms of content Graal has for the most part always been a player made game. It can also be argued that Classic got much better after Stefan left it.

Posted by Higbey

I think he is just frustrated how it's turned out, how he can make this great server and such, while Stefan is concentrating on iclassic for profits. While I agree he seems to feel like he owns and made it all, and hates to see the potential wasted and Stefan abandoning it.

He is a bit bitter and upset, but with what he has to deal with its easy to understand why he is fed up. Because he can't stand Stefan, his work is ignored, and he cant get the server where he wants without Stefan, and he is too afraid about what Stefan will do with his and others work...

It's quiet sad really, image how much better graal iclassic would be with him as head of quests and storyline.

My thoughts towards the iPhone server in terms of its own identity have nothing to do with Stefan. We have been redeveloping Classic since before iPhone even came into existence, inwhich obtaining recognition from him was never a driving motivation. Stefan has rightly or wrongly been single track minded since long before I ever began practising development, I knew what I was getting into and it would be foolish to expect that to suddenly change.

Posted by Azrael

I don't bash him at what he's done to Classic PC.

Incredibly ironic:

Posted by Azrael

Thor has done pretty much nothing in terms of Classic.

Posted by Azrael

In fact, the copy of Classic that iClassic is built off of is pre-Thor. He had nothing to do with it development wise at that time.

I'm not entirely sure what it is you're insinuating here, but I have never claimed to be behind the original development of iClassic if that's what you're suggesting.
However it's not entirely true that I had nothing to do with it, I was a developer on Classic prior to becoming Manager, and there have certainly been uses of things that were in part my work which were made beyond the initial 2007 level set, presumably obtained within a 2008 backup.
But this is absolutely fine, I have never claimed that my work has been stolen, and again this irks me when people who claim to know me well suggest such a thing, and it's not a great deal of things anyway. I am more concerned with how certain things have been made to look alien from Classic.

Posted by Azrael

Thor insisting that what we used was his couldn't be any wronger.

Again a complete fabrication, I have never claimed this and I agree it could not be further from the truth.

Posted by Azrael

To top it off, we haven't released much "Classic" content. What we have, we (I) have had to go through level by level to ensure each script is GS2.

Nobody in their right mind should be expecting you to release exact copies of older Classic content, we're not even doing that with PC Classic.
You're also right in that mass converting is an extremely tedious process, I know first hand how a lot of the levels iPhone inherited are badly scripted, happens to be one of the reasons we wiped the server.

Posted by Azrael

UN style? There's no such thing. The tile styling that Unholy Nation utilizes is a combination of old and new. That server didn't hop out of the womb like that - in its early days, it looked exactly like Classic. Developers eventually moved to the style that is dubbed "UN" or "New". Tell me, is Zodiac using "UN Style"?

Call it whatever you like, it exists on newer servers, it was very rare on Classic until post NPC-Server. While it would be wrong to say change is bad or that improvements shouldn't be explored, this style isn't really contributing any significant improvement, and there's nothing wrong with using the simpler tiling style.

Posted by Azrael

iClassic is not Classic. It's a hybrid.

The word hybrid generally implies that different elements have been combined to create something better or more efficient.
But this is far from the case, it's more a wild and random collection of entirely different things than a strategic combination.
Hybrid or not, it's still for the most part purporting to be the same thing when it is clearly a very different thing.

Posted by Azrael

Nobody likes to listen to someone complain non-stop, and frankly, that's usually what I see from him when I venture onto the Graal forums

Posted by Azrael

If it is about him missing Stefan's attention, well, suck it up. Stefan has his agenda and goes where he wants.

There aren't many people who can say they've spent 2.5 years without pause redeveloping a hidden server from the ground up. If my goal is to obtain attention or recognition there are many easier and less time consuming things I could do instead. I don't suppose you're aware Stefan has on multiple occasions offered me money/a free iDevice/a staff position to contribute work to iPhone?
It does not make sense to do what I do, I do it because I want to recreate and advance a game I played as a kid, and in the case of Tyhm's Graal the Adventure I feel it was the best standard of a game Graal has ever reached.

Regarding Stefan's agendas, while I among plenty of others can be very critical of him at times, I have on numerous occasions on the forums defended the fact that he is hard working and just has a hell of a lot of different things on his plate, leaving some things understandably to be a very low priority.
I would also like to re-iterate that Graal has always been a player made game, Stefan or no Stefan it is and will always be ultimately up to the community to build and maintain the game, which is again something I have posted in his defence. He even once sent me a forum PM personally thanking me for saying such a thing, funnily enough within a thread discussing the possibility of PC Graal ever mimicking iPhone's success.

Posted by Azrael

He's accomplished some cool, neat stuff on Classic. But frankly, the server is dead. I wish nothing more to see it rise from the ashes, but there's just no hope there. The minute a server is taken off of Classic Hosting, it's done. That's how things roll. I have seen some awesome servers come and go based solely on this.

I don't resent your opinion on this, you're quite right in that no server has managed to completely resurrect itself, and ofcourse the last server to break through was Zodiac over half a decade ago. I've never been under any illusions as to just how vast the amount required to accomplish this is.

I will say however that the majority of the -hard- work is done, once we've released our Castle Dungeon (and this is a huge project containing lots of different neat resources, which again Stefan asked us about even though we haven't even released it yet), we'll be taking the focus off of developing quests and onto community based content, which is much more straight forward.

I realise you guys don't have the luxury of 2 and a half years to make a server inwhich you feel is complete. You've had the difficult circumstance of having to maintain over a thousand players, without a 100% devotional coder, on a much more CPU limited platform, and ofcourse you're volunteers.

My gripe with iClassic from a development perspective (completely separate from Classic perspective) lies on a somewhat deeper level inwhich there isn't realistically anything that can be done about it now, which may simply cause problems in the long run.
I would like to clarify that I do not wish you or any of the general staff members (the people that really run the game) any offence.

Regarding the jokes on PC Classic, they're not crude, but more down to ones own interpretation... it's harmless fun, lot of people have found it entertaining. On the other hand some players actually take Bomber's Shop seriously which is something of a backfiring, but funny nonetheless.  

Posted by Thor

I don't suppose you're aware Stefan has on multiple occasions offered me money/a free iDevice/a staff position to contribute work to iPhone?
It does not make sense to do what I do, I do it because I want to recreate and advance a game I played as a kid, and in the case of Tyhm's Graal the Adventure I feel it was the best standard of a game Graal has ever reached.

You're right it doesn't make sense what you're doing.
Wasting time on pc for sentimental reasons..I would've taken the offer, but that's just me

but you seem like a well spoken dude so I respect dat :3  

Posted by Thor

!

I'm looking forward to the castle quest, cant wait  

Posted by Godzilla

yes, and iclassic will never be 10% as good as classic iphone.

 

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA  

I would also like to re-iterate that Graal has always been a player made game, Stefan or no Stefan it is and will always be ultimately up to the community to build and maintain the game, which is again something I have posted in his defence. He even once sent me a forum PM personally thanking me for saying such a thing, funnily enough within a thread discussing the possibility of PC Graal ever mimicking iPhone's success.

Lol we fked most the community players stuff is ignored except the usual players who already know staff(apart from the occasional competition)...
Graal iClassic will allways be heading down the drain it's only a matter of time, unless they get paid scripters and LAT's in...that sadly, I just can't see happening.