IMPORTANT: Guild Loyalty?
 

No offense, iclassics guilds suck so bad.
we go on and off tags 24/7 joining guilds like its nothing making guilds like its nothing kicking people from guilds like its nothing.
if we all stuck to 1 guild each and put our full loyalty into it, iclassic would be sick.
Ventrue Charm Zanza and US are the only ones putting that thought into consideration,and 2 out of 4 are from PC
"oh i like my freedom of guilds"
yea well maybe you should be using your freedom more wise.
"on pc when a person left his guild and went to a new one it was considered a huge thing" -angelus (Ventrue)

maybe we should think of how cool it would be if we dident all kick and recruit an we started joining less guilds and start making more 100% loyal/no kicking guilds.
maybe we should use allys as guild ALLIANCESES not Sub guilds.
we abused the guild system and allie system and now we will never fix it...... or can we?

Don't know about you, I've been 100% loyal to Advent V, without any problems.

But I do agree, it's too easy to join and leave guilds. The reason why it isn't a "huge thing" when players switch guilds, is usually that the guild they switch between are friends. I consider veteran tower takers that were infamous switched guilds to another major tower guild a big change. Like, lets say if DarkDeathAngel was known by Chain of Memories, Ximtra, Advent V, Rebellious, for being a good tower defender from Project Soul, and he switched to Chain of Memories permanently, it would make for big news in that community of tower takers.

Dunno, that's my little two cents.

"advent v" abuses ally system using it as sub guilds and kicks and recruits
so just another guild to me

So is Zanza "just another guild"? They used Zanza, Caelum and Samhain as subs to Helsing when they were taking towers.

I'd like three examples of major guilds that use the ally system for allies. Family guilds don't count.

We use subs to accommodate for the large quantity of members. So do alot of other guilds, mainly tower guilds, because we have a high influx of members who want to join. Plus, we have formed unregistered alliances with Venus Gospel and Cruxis Evolution.

US Ventrue Charm

As far as I'm concerned, US has no allies, and Ventrue is a family guild, their allies are basically subs.

I'll give you Charm, but that's it.

false US is allies with ArchAngels
and False Ventrue does not have subs, they have allies,they also do not have 1 kick and recruit guild. they alll have our own tags and they never get kicked unless we dis obey rules

I kinda agree and kinda disagree. Because the amount f players in a guild Is limited it requires the 5 branches and a war guild in many ways if you wanna be successful and that's not a bad thing. Unregistered alliances are fine. But all the temps, noobcruiting, cheap tower taking, kicking people for every little thing, etc has gotta stop. You REALLY shouldn't use advent V as an example of doing it right. I'd use them as a bad example. They recruited tons of temps, the leaders suck, and most of the people in it barely know how to use a sword. They just sit in a choke point and spam their sword.

Just because you didn't get our 1k hat does not give you the right to be so rude. No point in arguing with you, you've already shown you have no problem with cheap shots. Although it is pretty funny how you only start insulting us AFTER you found out you wouldn't be getting the hat.

i have a problem with every guild except ventrue US and charm
no offense vyse
its not the people in the rest of the guilds that i dislike
i dislike the way people have been abusing allies and guilds on iclassic.

"a player would be in 1-2 guild max on PC. whenever a player switched guilds it was HUGE everybody would know about it,the compition of guilds was great because of this"-angelus (ventrue)

No one has "abused" anything, there is a much higher playercount on this server, so of course there will be more guild switching than PC. Using allies as subguilds is the most efficient way to take a tower, and to not do it would be putting yourself at a huge disadvantage.

I do understand where you're coming from, but making topics about how classic guilds suck is not the way to get your point across.

my point is, we are fighting for nothing. we take forts for hours we want hours for 1k. we want 1k for a hat.
if you were to say im fighting for somthing than a hat,well hours havent proved anything to anybody.
now maybe if a guild consisted of 25 (max) perminate members that rarley got kicked, their would be competion. because the members want their guild to be the best. not just for some hat. only time people get togther and realy try at somthing is during gst...

Another thing I don't understand or really like with the guilds is how people in the guild would make their own guild and recruit people of that guild into their own, with other friends, then they make another guild and recruit their members and their friends, then it's like a continuation. Simple solution; stay in that first guild. Better yet, pay 2000 for allies cheapos. It's the same price as a guild. But I'd have to say the main problem with guilds comes from how it's being lead.

I believe that loyalty is a huge problem on Classic and it's something that comes up in US guild chat quite often. People like myself, Unleash, NiTe, Prado, Shannon, Comyt, Yellow, etc all are associated with US, and that is because we are only US members and have been for quite a while now. It isn't the sparring, the ranks, or the GST wins that make us known (even when we've lost people still believe we've won) it's the loyalty of our members. We all have a few "joke" tags, but you'll very rarely see any of us without a US tag. No one member is bigger than any guild, but if a guild has no unique members to it, then there is no guild to even be recognized.

There are certain people that you'll see in every guild's roster. I feel that in having these people in your guild, you are completely devaluing how "serious" your guild can be taken. This is also the case for people who create guilds for the sole purpose of entering the GST. Do you think that creating mega teams (but not.. y'know.. real guilds) is what the tournament is for? Do you think that there are any benefits to it? NOPE LOL THERE ISN'T. I did this in the last tournament so I could play, but it was my real guild that won in the end. Ch4m also had a second place streak for a long time, and I really believe that this loyalty factor contributed towards that.

People who mess around and change their guild tags every week are a joke, yet nobody seems to realize it in their own actions. When someone is new, or decides to act like this within my guild I'd give them a chance. I still find it very disrespectful to anyone who is loyal to the guild however, and they'd eventually be removed if things didn't change. You don't need people like this. I think that this attitude is something that everyone else should adopt for the sake of maintaining a good guild. You want to be competitive? That's cool, but it isn't going to happen with a bunch of randoms.

p.s. Guild hats need to stop until they're actually being earned.

@rufus rep+

For a war guild to have permanent members, no kick and recruit, and to be sucessful would be near impossible. 25 people. C'mon guys. That's why the Ally system has been used for sub guilds in most war guilds. For SoS, ~100 members that work together and know each other.

I for one never change guilds whatsoever. My GST teams have all been made up of close friends to the guild members and the members themselves. While some members may never switch, I don't think there is any single guild where all the members are strictly on tag 24/7.

@OP, Charm's allies are basically friend guilds, I don't think they've used the ally system in the way you seem correct either based on that logic.

@Rufus, you win internets.

I'm afraid that hats have made people unloyal if you take a look mostly every guild that has nearly 1k or is going for 1k just have people to help for the hats they win but not for the honor for the guild which is sad.

Guilds are made for any leader's sole purpose. As rufus said some guild are just mainly for gst and will probably never kick those members and only have like 7 people in the guild (5 core 2 sub). Then there is a "Guild for friends" where you just fill up a guild with all your friends which might not even require the tags to be on 24/7. Then there are those family guilds that may require you to be on tag 24/7 or something close to that. And the last thing is a tower taking guild, which has been said previously kick and recruit members, which consist of multiple allies to help keep the tower.

Each guild has a different view of what a guild should be. Like some guilds can be a family guild and at the same time be a tower taking guild (Zanza) others could be a Guild spar guild and a friends guild (US?) and sometimes all of the above.

I can say on the behalf on the tower guilds that they need to have a system to regulate how to take towers. Before the allies system came out this has also been used but more like if there is an allied guild that the person would have to pm you and recruit. That does not make it say your not loyal to the guild just means that they want to be able to keep a tower with active people at a certain time.

On the behalf of family guilds, you can probably see the difference in loyalty from a tower guild, but you will still have some people that do go off tag to probably go to a tower or do something else. I myself can say that stay on Feare tag 24/7 is not very much fun seeing how it's just like 2 or 3 people on tag once a day.

I can agree that there are many many people who are "hat chasers", I myself could be one, who are very loyal just to get the hat. Then other times they might not be as loyal and just waste a tag

For all the guilds that have passed 1k and continued, I honestly don't think the rewards of 5k and 10k are what drives the guild to take towers. It's thrown around occasionally but for the more senior, or smarter, or more respected, or older, or wiser members, the hats mean nothing to them.

What?

I'm going to disagree with you there, every tower guild has a strong backbone of members just as, if not more loyal than family guilds. There is a hierarchy, and being loyal is the way to move up in it. I'm really not sure how to put this across because I don't think a lot of people on this website tower.

Complete bull****. It is possible for a "war guild" to recive 1k hours without abusing the alliance system and saying that the ally system was made for sub guilds. Just take a look at Project Soul. If i recall they didnt have any "sub guilds" to trash their players into if they went offline. In fact if i remembered corectly, the guilds that they were allied to ACTUALLY came to help them from time to time. I mean why else do the reward the guild and the ALLIANCE for having 1k hours.

nufsed

Allys killed tower taking. It's unfair how these mega guilds came along with sub guilds to bypass the 25 member limit. The idea was to have 25 good loyal members, not a bunch of newb recruits to swamp the tower. Then again, can't really blame em when big guilds and staff guilds end up being such a bad example. If the guild system was fixed to make it so it had to be used the way it was intended to then things would be way more fair, most games don't let staff members compete in player events, it's for a reason. Yet staff don't seem to give a **** anyway.

I was just going to say, towers are just a "who can stash the most noobs in a room" competition now.

Most people do stick to one guild, and even if they don't, how is that affecting the "sickness" of this game? You're basically saying guilds should be military strict. I agree that loyalty is important but your failing to realise that some guilds are just meant for friends, chatting, fooling around, etc. I also think claiming that sub guilds are "abusing the system" is not that strong of a point. I think you should just let it be, the current guild system isn't that bad.

Yeah,Most not all players stick to one guild what he means is that some people try their hardest to join a guild then by the next week leave to join another guild for what exactly?Hats,Rep,or other privileges point is they get passed around like a bag of chips.

And we're not saying that fun guilds are bad we understand that people do it to socialize that's cool just dislike how some people are guild *****s is all.

In my time playing Graal, I have only had true loyalty for two. It took almost a year for me to find either. I regard guilds as somewhere you should be able to trust EVERYONE. Where, if everyone you know irl is against you, you can go and relax. This went twofold for me, because I have a lot of issues(medical and otherwise), And Ventrue put up with me for over a year. Through so much, Ventrue and Ch4rM were wher my loyalties lied. I know people who had relationship problems and would come and rant on Graal for the release. I absolutely hate seeing people bounce between so many guilds. To me, loyalty is everything. Being kicked is an act of absolute last resort. It's horrible. I don't know what else to say, but I agree, Qes.

Just by looking at the guild fort scores, you notice a trend: CoM, VG, CJ, CXE, NAL, Cruxis, SOS, ZC, Pulse, BoN, AV, and many, many more, ALL use the sub guilds as allies system. If some of you believe that this is abusing the allies, then that would be more of a reflection on the tower system itself, not the guilds. For those who say it's totally possible to be successful with one 25 member guild, check the top 50 and see how many of those actually exist.

As for loyalty, most tower guilds prioritize loyalty from their members. Of course some guilds noobcruit and win that way, but most of them do have a solid set of perms. I think most PC players are used to smaller, more tightly knit guilds simply because the PC community is smaller & generally has less kids. For example, on a server that averages 100 players, having a loyal guild of 5-10 is pretty impressive. On a server with 1500+, you really do need some way to give your guild a chance to win (Subs as allies). I see no problem with both guild types (Small, no sub allies, and large, subs as allies) coexisting, no need to fight over it.

100% agree with Vyse.

meh why do yall care so much >.< get over yalls self and deal with it

'waits for people to throw rocks'

We care because I'd rather have friends in a guild who I know instead of random people I barely see because they go off tag so much.

no, the hat was just the cherry on top. you don't really know the story so you can't really talk. basically i just came back from quiting for a year and wanted a guild. i messaged you, and saw advent, and asked you what it was and i got recruited. at first i loved it, having a tower a lot, making a few new friends, etc. and it was even after the fact that i was recruited that i knew you were a tower taking guild. then at around 900 hours i started to look around. we had deadwood, and i just saw the AE's (co-leaders) telling people to block the left and right staircase. i questioned them, i tried to correct them, saying that if we spread ourselves out we'll be more successful. this is the response i got: "are you questioning the AE's?" "dude, shut up, were fine" "lol godzilla your asking for it" (from an AE) "god, dont question us, we work hard here, and we've been doing this for a while". now at that point i was just like whatever let them do what they want. but i figured the leaders did'nt really know what they were talking about, and it was pretty stupid to just ignore a tip from a member. so i decided i would try to climb my way to the top of the ranks, and try to get my opinions heard. at this point i had also talked to some of my old friends, and they've talked to me about asking to join zanza, or making a new guild with some friends where i would have a leadership position of sorts. but for the time being i turned them down. why? because i saw a few gems in advent. ilazr, mik, pain, even you were people i respected. in fact i still respect you guys. but looking back it was really only you. i mostly hated everyone else. but anyway on with the story! the second time was when we had snow at around 950. i was skating around, no one was attacking, so i decided to take a walk outside, look around at some shops, see whats new, look for rps people, because keep in mind i just got back from a year. so i was skating around, staying in snowtown if i was needed, and we had plenty of members there. so i was skating around and guild chatted about something in the mad hatter i think. and then, "GODZILLA GET BACK TO SNOW RIGHT NOW OR YOUR KICKED!" at this point i was just laughing at how seriously these AE's took themselves, and made some response like "yes supreme leader", or something. and then the flood of "HEY SHUT UP HES AN AE AND YOUR NOT! KICK HIM!". but i still wanted to stay. not as much, but i still kinda liked it. in between all this i also experienced annoying spam, no free time to myself, and crappy members who could'nt kill pkers whenever we had snow or castle, which was a lot of the time. then at 975, we had snow again. this was the thing that made me begin to disrespect advent. about 3 separate times some noob came in asking to join. every time he was recruited, then kicked when he went offline. so i went up to one of the AE's and told him that we shouldn't noobcruite because we get mad at other guilds for doing it, and we want members who will listen to us, and are friends, not just random people. but then he swiftly responded that it wasn't noobcruiting. that noobcruiting was recruiting random people. what they were doing was recruiting temps. the temps asked to join first. my mistake xD. but i still wanted to climb the ranks in order to try and change the guild to be better. it was after 1k that things snapped. basically walking along i saw rockson, an old GoD member from back in the day. so i messaged him D00M FTW!! this is when we did'nt have a tower btw. so we chatted for a while, shared memories. he recruited me to GoD, and i was being spammed so i accepted it, and put the tag on for a little while. then i recruited him to D00M too. so we chatted for about another hour, then i logged off, logged back in and we had a tower. so i went to put my sub tag on and...kicked. now i get it if someones innactive, but i took the tag off for an hour. thats not that big of a deal. this showed me that the guild leaders were power hungry, and that i could be kicked for doing even the tiniest thing. from there i asked to be recruited again, was, and went and helped at whatever tower had for a little while and went to bed. but there i knew in that climbing the ranks would be very difficult, and that im best off just getting the hat and leaving. this was not where i belonged. i mean i helped you guys a lot, i thought i deserved it. i stayed with you till Saturday, making other estrangements with friends, and then right before the party boom, kicked again for spamming the guild chat even though i wasnt even guild chatting. i swiftly got recruited again by the some nice leader, complained about power abuse, then shut up for the next 15 mins about. then the party came, i was excited to get the hat, and get out. i decided to start the new guild with my friends. so i logged out because there was some sort of complication, and then i logged back in and saw everyone had it. i asked you and you said i was too late. by now i was just like fk this im out of here. and i left. and did criticize you guys when i was in the guild. but it was always met by a power hungry leader threatening to kick me.

see all this stuff?^^^

this shouldnt be what a guild is. i agree with you guys. guilds are being too abusive of the system right now.

for the few days i was out of the guild i didnt touch you guys. but when i saw a person arguing that advent V was a good guild, i couldnt resist. because really, you guys arent. but if you can take comfort in anything its knowing that your still better than some guilds. at least i think...

the reason i use you as an example is because i experienced you. i was in it and i saw all the flaws. im not about to go start talking about a guild being bad i know nothing about.

Lol no, it has absolutely nothing to do with the playercount. I'll agree, I prefer quality over quantity in a functional guild, but that doesn't mean to say I'm against having 25 quality members in my guild. Rather than rushing to add every other person who can swing their sword, I'd rather hold out for people that fit my guild and its image. That has nothing to do with my experience on PC servers and it has nothing to do with winning, it's about standards and loyalty. Running a real guild.

I'll agree with you, we may have some people like that (Abusive, rude, immature) in AV, but they are kicked at the first sign of it. I have no tolerance for that kind of behavior. However, classifying the whole guild as bad based on a few players makes no sense. If one Target employee was rude to you, would you suddenly think "Oh wow, I guess ALL Target employees are horrible, never shopping there again!" ? I hold my members to very high standards, all you had to do was tell me who was abusive and they would be dealt with.

I didn't mean that tower guilds should go out and recruit random people, that's actually the opposite of what I said. A few people in this topic seem to think that tower guilds noobcruit 24/7, don't earn their hats, have no "quality" members, and are basically abusing the ally system. To say we aren't "real guilds" simply because we use subs as allies & have more members is pretty insulting. Like I said before, it's a reflection on the tower system, not the guilds. If you want to a have close knit guild of only 25, that's fine. If you want to take towers with that guild, you can't expect to get very far with it, considering the competition have a huge advantage.

EDIT- Re-reading this, I can easily see where you guys are coming from. I do notice quite a few tower guilds that perfectly fit your descriptions (Noobcruits, rude members, players not earning their hats). I just don't think stereotyping all tower guilds as such is the right way to go about this.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...didnotread.gif
srry too long

nope. a lot of these people are AE's. idk maybe theyre all goodie goodie when youre on, but all 3 people who kicked me should be kicked. thats just straight up abuse. and i said that you had a few good people. i named you mik, ilazr, and pain, and there are a few others i cant remember. but other than that you guys arent too good. its either kids who take themselves too seriously, or spammy noobs who cant swing a sword. sometimes both O.o. looking around obviously your standards arent too high.

and your guild does recruit random people. Advent is one of the stereotypical tower guilds. rude members: check. noobcruits: well you can call it temps all you want but its really all the same. players not earning their hats: idk, you kept out the random people just trying to get hat well, but the tactics you used werent good at all to do so.

stay tuned for my tower guide :). you might learn something.

@nite i lold

Those who know me personally know my guild isn't like that, at all. As for your many insults, again, I'm not going to argue with ya. You did the same thing to astro when you were kicked then, and you're doing the same thing to us now. Still just as annoying and rude.

^ what i was trying to say.
if we had the 1k people online make loyaltly guilds and fill then up we'd have like.... 40-60 guilds in constant competion and classic would be epic.
but not instead we abuse allies as subs or mass noob recruit

lol dude i was in your guild in case you didnt notice. i saw it all personally. it happens whether you like it or not. and while they're insults they're true. you guys do all those things. you like to **** on other guilds for doing them and you do them too. thats pretty hypocritical. and i quit both advent and astro. wasnt kicked. and i didnt make fun astro, i made fun of healy. one person in the guild. thats it. i liked everyone in astro except healy.

everybody is the oppisite of co opperative... no reason to curse or yell or argue.
whole point of this was just a tad smack in the face to graal to let us know we have being abusing guilds since day 1 of guilds
its like joining the united states army and than helping the Alkida and going back and forth.
and its like recruiting random people to guilds and kicking then.
we have no sense of compition because we all switch guilds.

I agree that guilds would be more balanced if we were limited to 25 slots + real allies, but I don't see it changing any time soon. Personally, I enjoyed having 25 excellent members in astro more than the 100+ in the tower guilds. Unfortunately, you either play by the rules established, or you'll be totally disadvantaged in towers :\ Only way I can think of to get rid of the subs as allies system is to delete allies completely, which defeats the purpose.

yeah me and my friends are going to try to be like US, venture and ch4rm, and use the guild system in its correct way. idk how well its gonna work out, since we just started. but were hopeing to get experienced players, and good allies to it. we might not be as pro as these guilds, but at least we'll be fair.

go for it! as long as your name is not anything like those US2 Fegs.

Ok look, we have our opinions ok? Some people want to use there guilds as subs to a tower guild, some want to use it as a spar guild and have no allies. And others just want to ally there friends guild, chillax, and MAKE new friends. It's no big deal k? We all have our different perspectives of what makes a great guild, and you complaining about it wont change people's opinions and differences.

lol no. right now its dimension. but we may change it. so far its me, mentos, papyrus, and a john guy who i dont really know too well. we got a few people who have shown interest in it, but were getting everything figured out first.

Thank god maybe we could have some friendly rivalries and wars for christ sake.

This is like seeing a football team cheating or using steroids, and instead of trying to condemn their behaviour you go and have your own team cheat and use steroids and say its the only way you can compete.

The point isn't that everyone needs to do those shady things to be able to beat them, the point is to get the abuse of the system stopped so loyal groups of your 25 friends can compete and it's fair. Then none of this noob recruiting and sub guilds could be done. I've made posts before with how to fix the guilds, you'll notice most the opposition of it is from players in guilds known for noob recruiting and sub guilds.

It's actually nothing like that at all.

It's a very clever tactic and it's 100% fair because anyone can do it. If you have enough people willing to join your guild and stay loyal, odds are they'd be fine with making subs.

Anyone can cheat. Does it still make is fair? It's not the way the recruiting and kick tools and allies and guilds were intended, for a reason.

Using something to your advantage doesn't automatically mean it's cheating.

Death corps, Jin dynasty, Amitoune, the Original snow assassins (not the knockoff that became more successful by doing those cheap tactics.)

Say the balamb ship warp could glitch out and make you invincible, if I used that to my advantage would that still be bug abuse? It's not wether its part of the game, it's whether you using it as intended.