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-   -   changes to weapons (https://www.graalians.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29806)

Ghettoicedtea 07-05-2015 09:30 PM
changes to weapons
 
Ok so i got rehired as guns admin. We have a big revamp coming. This is we are going back to the old roots of zone combat. Weapon damages will be higher now and take less shots to kill. Also weapons reloads are drastically increasing to complement it.

Guns are now going to be much more deadly now. That is all

kenthefruit 07-05-2015 09:37 PM
Raise the HP to 100 so you can actually have a variety in damages.

Ghettoicedtea 07-05-2015 10:13 PM
Quote:
Posted by kenovo (Post 588599)
Raise the HP to 100 so you can actually have a variety in damages.
yeah we are working on that, theres a bit variety right now but commandos are def the OP class now

Cookie Xanadu 07-06-2015 03:18 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 588604)
yeah we are working on that, theres a bit variety right now but commandos are def the OP class now
Remove the concept of +damage and such from classes and give them a complete overhaul to better fit their name.

Remove bots
Remove that AoE heal-cane-thing

Give healing it's own touch-heal skill with a slight CD.

kenthefruit 07-06-2015 03:21 AM
Quote:
Posted by Cookie Xanadu (Post 588675)
Remove the concept of +damage and such from classes and give them a complete overhaul to better fit their name.

Remove bots
Remove that AoE heal-cane-thing

Give healing it's own touch-heal skill with a slight CD.
Agreed, Classes desperately need an overhaul especially since they play (more so could play) a big part in the tactical fighting perspective of Zone.

Ghettoicedtea 07-06-2015 04:45 AM
Quote:
Posted by kenovo (Post 588677)
Agreed, Classes desperately need an overhaul especially since they play (more so could play) a big part in the tactical fighting perspective of Zone.
well zone is heading down a more tactical route of high damage + high reload times because now you cant run out in the open like a moron and things like nades are going to become huge in play.

Quote:
Posted by Cookie Xanadu (Post 588675)
Remove the concept of +damage and such from classes and give them a complete overhaul to better fit their name.

Remove bots
Remove that AoE heal-cane-thing

Give healing it's own touch-heal skill with a slight CD.
i talked with tash, can confirm we are getting classes overhauls. Dunno what they are but a +damage wouldn't be a massive issue if we had 100hpd

Dark Ice Cream 07-06-2015 06:11 AM
Would love to re-alter the classes. You can only use certain weapons for one class, same as bots.

100HP could be better

Ryan 07-06-2015 07:12 AM
i knew this was a GIT thread because the title has no capitals

Sardon 07-06-2015 07:14 AM
Quote:
Posted by Cookie Xanadu (Post 588675)
Remove the concept of +damage and such from classes and give them a complete overhaul to better fit their name.

Remove bots
Remove that AoE heal-cane-thing

Give healing it's own touch-heal skill with a slight CD.
Bots are fun
Sometimes you need medics to help you in missions if you cant afford a heal staff

optimuswhat 07-06-2015 07:17 AM
Grenades could use a bit of improvement.

kenthefruit 07-06-2015 07:26 AM
Quote:
Posted by optimuswhat (Post 588721)
Grenades could use a bit of improvement.
it'd be cool if they became their own weapon too rather than taking over the hand slot every time you get more. That way they could be stacked up (carrying more than the maximum amount as of now) and used to strategical advantages.

Cookie Xanadu 07-06-2015 02:28 PM
Quote:
Posted by Sardon (Post 588720)
Bots are fun
Sometimes you need medics to help you in missions if you cant afford a heal staff
The whole point is to remove that safety net and make it more of a risk-reward so that you deserve the healing. By removing both bots you free up the roles and give players a purpose.

G Fatal 07-07-2015 10:34 AM
then whats perk of healer gnna be?

Shmegg 07-07-2015 10:51 AM
speaking of grenades, where are we supposed to get them (other than dying) because the new ammo crate doesn't replenish them

Tashkin 07-07-2015 03:14 PM
I want to make grenades their own item.

Ghettoicedtea 07-07-2015 06:19 PM
Quote:
Posted by Tashkin (Post 589161)
I want to make grenades their own item.
i personally think you should just allow the grab button to be the grenades slot, where you have the option of equipping different grenade types, and you have the actions option there too.

Vladamir Blackthorne 07-07-2015 07:43 PM
So what's the eta on the changes being implemented?

Cookie Xanadu 07-08-2015 01:34 AM
Quote:
Posted by G Fatal (Post 589117)
then whats perk of healer gnna be?
Healer should be a support that spends most of the time healing allies.

Ghettoicedtea 07-08-2015 03:05 AM
Quote:
Posted by Lazerlatte (Post 589229)
So what's the eta on the changes being implemented?
The shop weapons are done and are not horridly unbalanced but not balanced. The whole changes of holiday guns and complete balancing of shop guns have a possibility for wensday. But everything should be completed by thursday.

Edit. Next weapon on my list to fix is the Nade launcher. Needs about 5x the current range it has now and give it a purpose.

Vladamir Blackthorne 07-08-2015 03:34 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 589373)
The shop weapons are done and are not horridly unbalanced but not balanced. The whole changes of holiday guns and complete balancing of shop guns have a possibility for wensday. But everything should be completed by thursday.

Edit. Next weapon on my list to fix is the Nade launcher. Needs about 5x the current range it has now and give it a purpose.
So... what did you do to the kv24 so far?

Also, more importantly, how will times to kill be affected by this overhaul? Like 5-7 shots to kill? 3-5? 2 shots on rocket/grenade/ice launchers?

EKiM 07-08-2015 07:14 AM
Wtf did you do to the futuristic bow... It's so useless now

Ghettoicedtea 07-08-2015 04:25 PM
Quote:
Posted by Lazerlatte (Post 589381)
So... what did you do to the kv24 so far?

Also, more importantly, how will times to kill be affected by this overhaul? Like 5-7 shots to kill? 3-5? 2 shots on rocket/grenade/ice launchers?
apparently someone touched the KV, i reverted it back to its original glory. For the most part guns are now taking around 5 shots to kill, in return for this though they have longer reloads. The more spammy guns have longer reload times.

Quote:
Posted by EKiM (Post 589426)
Wtf did you do to the futuristic bow... It's so useless now
bow is 25 damage. The fact that its a machine gun bow bugged the hell outta me.

G Fatal 07-08-2015 05:49 PM
Quote:
Posted by Cookie Xanadu (Post 589335)
Healer should be a support that spends most of the time healing allies.
literally everyone would be commando.. more health with healing ability would be ok.(idk any player that would be just to try heal player while being spammed with lasers)

Cookie Xanadu 07-08-2015 07:30 PM
Quote:
Posted by G Fatal (Post 589533)
literally everyone would be commando.. more health with healing ability would be ok.(idk any player that would be just to try heal player while being spammed with lasers)
Then that's their loss for being selfish.



@Ghetto any word or idea on how class revamps will come about? Will we have any say in what happens?

Ghettoicedtea 07-08-2015 08:24 PM
Quote:
Posted by Cookie Xanadu (Post 589558)
Then that's their loss for being selfish.



@Ghetto any word or idea on how class revamps will come about? Will we have any say in what happens?
no idea all i know is tash said we are doing it. Probably going to happen after gun revamping is done

Ghettoicedtea 07-09-2015 02:42 AM
Disregard everything i said about guns cause all my revamping just got flushed down the toliet due to 100HP now being a thing, classes being worked on so i have no idea what to balance for, and bullet speeds are now a thing too. So everything wont be done for a long ass time. Only thing i can positively say is guns bullets to kill will average at 6, our time to kill will be around the area of eras BAR t2k.

I have it planed like so
Spammy smgs will be fastest to kill but high avg 10-7btk, slowest velocity
Assault rifles will kill slower than smgs but more accurate 7-5btk, faster velocity
Dmrs will be heavy hitting and fast and accurate 4 btk fast velocity
Bow will be the highest dmg weapon but have 1 shot 2 second reload. 2btk fastest velocity

Joshua 07-09-2015 03:07 PM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 589512)
Bow is 25 damage. The fact that its a machine gun bow bugged the hell outta me.
Having a highly damaging bow with only one shot at the time also bugged the thought outta me, I mean, people (with strong determination) don't die instantly with 2 shots unless it's a shot to the head...

Ghettoicedtea 07-09-2015 11:02 PM
Quote:
Posted by Joshua (Post 589774)
Having a highly damaging bow with only one shot at the time also bugged the thought outta me, I mean, people (with strong determination) don't die instantly with 2 shots unless it's a shot to the head...
it takes 4 seconds to kill some one, thats almost 3x longer than normal to kill someone.

Joshua 07-09-2015 11:38 PM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 589881)
it takes 4 seconds to kill some one, thats almost 3x longer than normal to kill someone.
Went to test it out, takes wayyyy longer than 4 seconds to kill now that everyone's hp is 100, plus it actually deals 15 dmg (tested it on an alien ship). With the 2 seconds reload and 1 shot capacity with the chance of missing (The arrow velocity isn't fast), you can expect a 5 mins or longer showdown between two player...

Ghettoicedtea 07-10-2015 09:12 AM
Quote:
Posted by Joshua (Post 589894)
Went to test it out, takes wayyyy longer than 4 seconds to kill now that everyone's hp is 100, plus it actually deals 15 dmg (tested it on an alien ship). With the 2 seconds reload and 1 shot capacity with the chance of missing (The arrow velocity isn't fast), you can expect a 5 mins or longer showdown between two player...
ya tash went in and switched everything, he want's lower damage so we going a bit lower

Joshua 07-10-2015 09:15 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 590079)
ya tash went in and switched everything, he want's lower damage so we going a bit lower
Um, maybe a slight increase on how many arrows a shooter can hold at a time instead of one perhaps?

Ghettoicedtea 07-10-2015 03:41 PM
Quote:
Posted by Joshua (Post 590081)
Um, maybe a slight increase on how many arrows a shooter can hold at a time instead of one perhaps?
Why its a bow and arrow. Its supposed to shoot only one shot. Its fixed btw.

optimuswhat 07-11-2015 07:27 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 590150)
Why its a bow and arrow. Its supposed to shoot only one shot. Its fixed btw.
I don't know if this is possible, but what if the bow's bullet speed and damage was dependent on how long you hold the fire button? By holding the fire button, the bow charges up. The longer you hold it, the faster the arrow and the more damage it deals. The character would be slowed down while charging.

Ghettoicedtea 07-11-2015 08:39 AM
Quote:
Posted by optimuswhat (Post 590503)
I don't know if this is possible, but what if the bow's bullet speed and damage was dependent on how long you hold the fire button? By holding the fire button, the bow charges up. The longer you hold it, the faster the arrow and the more damage it deals. The character would be slowed down while charging.
hm don't know, def look into doing a charge shot type deal for it though.

DraGun 07-14-2015 01:05 AM
A lot of the reloads are taking longer than it should be. Kinda feels like the same reload speed has been implemented for guns that are drastically different in price. The changes in dmg and reload speed should be base upon their price not same reload speed for every spammy gun.

Ghettoicedtea 07-14-2015 03:15 AM
Quote:
Posted by DraGun (Post 591688)
A lot of the reloads are taking longer than it should be. Kinda feels like the same reload speed has been implemented for guns that are drastically different in price. The changes in dmg and reload speed should be base upon their price not same reload speed for every spammy gun.
Ya its currently spammy guns = higer reload times. But reload times are currently based off of how spammy the guns are cause usually the spammyer guns kill quicker.

Oh just thought about this, since in the future bullet speeds will go up, what about adding in a weight system that makes it so you move slower when that gun is equipped. I think it would give an edge to guns with slower velocitys as they can have none of it so they have the advantage of hit and run manuverability tactics. While faster shooter guns shoot faster and you have to be accurate with them to do well.

DraGun 07-15-2015 08:35 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 591748)
Oh just thought about this, since in the future bullet speeds will go up, what about adding in a weight system that makes it so you move slower when that gun is equipped. I think it would give an edge to guns with slower velocitys as they can have none of it so they have the advantage of hit and run manuverability tactics. While faster shooter guns shoot faster and you have to be accurate with them to do well.
That sounds like a start. Try adding in bullet spread, bullet range, bullet size (hit box), and damage decrease as the bullet travel further.

I know with the new implement, a lot of people are not going to like. It's going to be harder and more competitive gameplay but at least the weapons will be balanced out and stats matched according to their prices.

Joshua 07-15-2015 08:50 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 591748)
Ya its currently spammy guns = higer reload times. But reload times are currently based off of how spammy the guns are cause usually the spammyer guns kill quicker.

Oh just thought about this, since in the future bullet speeds will go up, what about adding in a weight system that makes it so you move slower when that gun is equipped. I think it would give an edge to guns with slower velocitys as they can have none of it so they have the advantage of hit and run manuverability tactics. While faster shooter guns shoot faster and you have to be accurate with them to do well.
Weight implementation sounds like a great idea, that would bring new tactics to handle various combat situations. :)

optimuswhat 07-15-2015 11:27 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 591748)
Ya its currently spammy guns = higer reload times. But reload times are currently based off of how spammy the guns are cause usually the spammyer guns kill quicker.

Oh just thought about this, since in the future bullet speeds will go up, what about adding in a weight system that makes it so you move slower when that gun is equipped. I think it would give an edge to guns with slower velocitys as they can have none of it so they have the advantage of hit and run manuverability tactics. While faster shooter guns shoot faster and you have to be accurate with them to do well.
Yes! Please do this.
Certain weapons could also use a charging system that could affect various stats if charged for a certain time.

But how will Showdown work? I assume only offensive-type guns will be viable. Will other "classes" of weapons be considered for Showdown use?

Ghettoicedtea 07-16-2015 03:23 AM
Welp never mind tashkin says its "impossible"
Could still though have this weight system just increase damage on guns, higher damage guns slow people down while low damage ones have minimal losses. This would especialy be great for medics as lower tier guns will benifit them more since they will have a massive speed manuverability bonus over people running with higher damage guns. They heavy guns will still have a small kill time advantage though if no damage losses.

Also i think this is going to not happen because those pesky sparrers pretty much run the entire ZP forums and they are loud and very obnoxious. With how bad the last experiments went and ****ted all over spar i doubt this will happen. Even though its a good idea.

optimuswhat 07-16-2015 07:37 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 592738)
Also i think this is going to not happen because those pesky sparrers pretty much run the entire ZP forums and they are loud and very obnoxious. With how bad the last experiments went and ****ted all over spar i doubt this will happen. Even though its a good idea.
Damn.
Your changes could actually make Zone's combat less bland by adding strategy to it. Players would no longer wish for all of their squad-mates to use Rippers or the Railgun. Instead, users would try and have some variety in weapons to ensure success in basing.

Instead of weapons being like Era (where you pretty much just buy better guns), there would be multiple different "weapon-types" to purchase and consider instead of just aiming for a BAR. It could make things more interesting. That's what I assume you're planning on doing (or similar).

Personally, I'm anxiously waiting for this update to happen. It will totally make Zone's combat better.

DraGun 07-16-2015 08:06 AM
Around 2012-2013 Tunder and I discussed a lot about changes that could be made to the gun system which could add in strategic gameplay and balancing the weapons. These changes needs to happen if people want to see Zone go down a successful path. Regardless of what people say these changes will actually improve the gameplay. I assume that a lot of players will complain but in the end it will actually be more enjoyable. No more running and gunning, spar will get harder. That means no relying on wall/bullet spam and trap, pk and basing will definitely change. Most of the PvP activities will revolve around skills and strategies not who got the best guns or who has the most people. Tunder actually was appointed as Guns Admin but he left due to college and not much progress and implementation were ever made. Hopefully Zone management will come to a resolution and do what's necessary.

Cookie Xanadu 07-17-2015 06:00 PM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 591748)
Ya its currently spammy guns = higer reload times. But reload times are currently based off of how spammy the guns are cause usually the spammyer guns kill quicker.

Oh just thought about this, since in the future bullet speeds will go up, what about adding in a weight system that makes it so you move slower when that gun is equipped. I think it would give an edge to guns with slower velocitys as they can have none of it so they have the advantage of hit and run manuverability tactics. While faster shooter guns shoot faster and you have to be accurate with them to do well.
Weight system, eh. If anything, add a rev-up script to the spammiest guns that, while in use, slow you down by 50% and when damage, interrupt your shooting.

optimuswhat 07-19-2015 05:43 AM
What happened? Tashkin just changed all the weapons back according to this thread. Did Ghetto get fired?

Cookie Xanadu 07-19-2015 03:47 PM
Whelp, Zone is back to being trash then.

Tashkin 07-19-2015 04:26 PM
Guns were set back to how they were before all of the changes made by GIT. Proper testing and changes will be made before these actually go public like he should have done in the first place.

Ghettoicedtea 07-19-2015 10:31 PM
rip the dream

Ghettoicedtea 07-20-2015 02:30 AM
Quote:
Posted by Tashkin (Post 594145)
Guns were set back to how they were before all of the changes made by GIT. Proper testing and changes will be made before these actually go public like he should have done in the first place.
the only time i ever did proper testing was the first time around, using unreleased weapons to create new weapon types that are implemented throughout the game AND BALANCED. Guess what, i got fired for that for "power abuse", so plan B do what i did the first time and make it purely off calculations. All the overhaul changes both the first second and third time was based off all calculations that i did. Fired again. wat. Give me a damn break, if you don't like what im doing freaking communicate that with me. I already knew "no one" (graalians was on board along with in game basers but no one on the ZP forums and thats there only feedback source aka all sparrers) were not on board, I apologized to them and was going to change them back on friday and start over from scratch and reapproach everything including how i conduct experiments. But naw better fire ghetto amirite?
Its offical, its impossible to work with graal zone.

optimuswhat 07-20-2015 05:30 AM
Quote:
Posted by Ghettoicedtea (Post 594249)
Spoiler
the only time i ever did proper testing was the first time around, using unreleased weapons to create new weapon types that are implemented throughout the game AND BALANCED. Guess what, i got fired for that for "power abuse", so plan B do what i did the first time and make it purely off calculations. All the overhaul changes both the first second and third time was based off all calculations that i did. Fired again. wat. Give me a damn break, if you don't like what im doing freaking communicate that with me. I already knew "no one" (graalians was on board along with in game basers but no one on the ZP forums and thats there only feedback source aka all sparrers) were not on board, I apologized to them and was going to change them back on friday and start over from scratch and reapproach everything including how i conduct experiments. But naw better fire ghetto amirite?
Its offical, its impossible to work with graal zone.
Well, it looks like Zone has a difficult time communicating properly, and has an awful way of generating feedback. If it is true that a majority of Zone-Play forumers are sparrers, then that's unfortunate. Well, GiT's ideas seemed very interesting, but I suppose they won't be happening. Damn shame!

DraGun 07-20-2015 10:32 AM
Hmm, you could have made any changes to the guns base on your calculations and test them with some of the staff members at an undisclosed location. I am sure there's staff around especially ZP's and they would be more than happy to help.

I kind of get why using unreleased weapons could be problem. Since a lot of players don't actually have a forum account or keep up with in-game information. They're going to be questioning why you have an unreleased weapon and might mistake it for a hack or some other stuff. Changes and testing should always be made private then released for a certain amount of time or days as a beta test before it's actually set in motion.


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