Moving Classic into a more quest-oriented direction
 

None of this information is final. These are merely ideas, and could change at any time.

So for a while as I've been developing, I've had an issue adding new content: no adequate rewards. This is something that's been relevant since I worked on the railroads. It's pretty much why loot chests are even a thing. I could add so many secrets, but there was nothing to really reward players with for finding said secrets. Zelda tends to reward players with heart-pieces, but since Classic has no heart containers that wasn't an option. I opted instead for loot chests, as it seemed like the best idea to give the player incentive to replay the area rather than "beating" it once and leaving.

The only other rewards that are viable are just cosmetics. But as Classic is developed, and more substantial content is added there needs to be better rewards. However Classic has been a pretty balanced game. It's extremely forgiving for new players as they are not instantly thrown into a world of veteran players with 20 hearts who can kill them in two hits. So how can I reward the player for their efforts while maintaining that balance?

Hera Hearts

Hera's are a staple of PC Classic, and I think were introduced during Tyhm's reign. They were Graal's counterpart to heart pieces. Instead of gathering 4 heart pieces to create a heart, you gathered Hera's. You took these Hera's and turned them in to claim a new heart. At first I think it only took 2 Hera's to gain a heart. But then it took 4. And then 6 I think... Basically the more you obtained, the more it took to gain the next heart.

But that's just history. Rewarding the player with hearts isn't difficult, it's maintaining balance. So I had an idea to split the players health. As players completed quests, they are rewarded Hera's. These Hera's are then converted into Hera Hearts(name pending). These hearts add to your health, but are only applicable outside of PvP.

Basically, as you obtain Hera Hearts, you can sustain more damage from baddies, traps, and all damage dealt that was not from another player. Damage from other players will always deplete your core, or default hearts. So PvP will still remain identical as it is now, however you will be able to sustain more damage from baddies. This means we can introduce hearts that allow players to traverse more dangerous areas, baddies, and basically introduce a sense of progression.

The downside is that players may not feel a true sense of accomplishment. Classic is mostly about the community, not the content. While content can offer players something to do, it is temporary. So Hera Hearts may not reward players in a sense that they can truly relate/use. But I suppose it's a matter of wanting to keep the balance, or give players power.

New Items

Items are easy to make. But content is not. Adding a new item implies a usage of said item. This is the biggest issue currently. Because Classic is a Live world rather than a game that's under development, this is a tricky thing to approach. I can make a whole new dungeon, and add a new item... but what will the player use that item for? There needs to be purpose, and progression. So... said item will also be used to gain access to a new area! That's two very large pieces of content that need to be done and released together. So it went from a dungeon with a new item, to a dungeon and a new area.

But then you get to the new area... and now what? What purpose does this area have? That's when it starts becoming a sort of horrible cycle. As I add new content, I need to add purpose, and purpose means rewards! Luckily, the Hera's will help with this! But you can still see the issue, yes? New content can't be released by itself, but also needs some sort of expansion on the world to make use of it. That's a lot of work.

And more importantly, how will new items work with player interaction? Yes, a boomerang can be used in creative ways to solve puzzles... but obviously it can also be used against other players. That's also an issue! New items need to be balanced so that they offer an edge on other players, but not be completely overpowered.

So the answer to that is : Magic

It won't be traditional magic though... it will actually be more of a cooldown effect. If you've played Link Between Worlds, it's essentially like the Stamina system... if you haven't, think of it as Magic, but one that refills over time. The goal is to limit items that have a PvP impact so they can't be spammed. This seems like the best solution to keep new items from completely overwhelming players in PvP.

So these are my ideas for expanding Classic into a more quest-oriented server. What are your thoughts?

I like this a lot-- with more development it could work out pretty well I think. It'd also make Classic closer to what I thought it would be when I first downloaded it (more RPG-like).

I don't think new content needs to be released all at once. I personally see nothing wrong with adding a new, inaccessible area as a little 'tease'. Then release the required item.

I myself think the game needs more challenges or games. Stuff like Archery, or sparring, that doesn't need a big award, gralats for a game would keep it alive longer than if it yielded an item anyway. That sort of thing is a great way to fill content, as an alternative to items. You could even rip and edit a few events to do it.

Gralats can only go so far, after all we can't flood the game with gralats for a reward for everything -- sadly Graal is a pay2play game. While I do love to offer players free content to enjoy, there does need to be some incentive to buy gralat packs.

If Classic splits into two servers, then there you go.

In what way does that help? That sounds more like it'd cause more problems then it'd fix.

Love the heart shield idea not sure about adding anything that alters pvp drastically tjough but something to do such as a wave based quest or just a quest that is enjoyable and can be repeated for loot would be amazing

then what

meh, I think Heras and hearts translated well on the old Graal, but I don't see a real purpose for it in the 2014 state of the game

completing all the quests from the 2000ish era of Classic was seen as neat and an accomplishment because the community was so small and practically every single player who was committed to playing the game could and would do it, so those additional hearts were never any sort of an advantage

here, I think it'd be kind of weird and unnecessary to give players advantages like more hearts, stronger sword, faster shields because that does nothing but empower players who have played longer and put new players at an uncomfortable disadvantage

you'd surely have to limit statistics to be equal for players who queue into spars and PKing below <40 AP would show no advantage (unless you add level 2+ sword/shields) so I don't even see how additional hearts server a purpose for anything other than killing baddies

the current quest model that iClassic follows, the one where you can unlock a mask shop and unlock the looting system, that's pretty cool and more quests like that wouldn't hurt at all

Let's say traps were put to a pvp area like sards. How would the hearts be applied?

QUESTS FTW

mario dont got sh1t on us :D

Seeing as that'd be a huge PvP advantage, obviously not.

I think you made some good points. However,Idk how easy or hard it would be to keep doing similar stuff along those lines. I would at least like to see them continue and finish off the scarf quest by using to unlock a new item or town.

good question, I would assume going by Dusty's idea that you would still take the "core" damage like normal from traps that are inside towers which I would think be considered pvp areas.

I really like Dusty's idea's and how he laid it out about adding content and quests. I'm okay with the heart container idea,but I do have some concerns/questions.

1. How will we be able to tell which is our core heart containers and what is ones used fighting baddies?

2.Would there be items to refill your lp's,and would this be effected by the AP system? Or would that be shut off as well?

3. Dusty mentions making it so stuff would effect things like fighting baddies. So how if at all would that effect Holiday quests or events? So would they not do Holiday quests anymore? Would it limit holiday quests so the holiday quest wouldn't involve baddies,or be effected by the new system?

Perhaps it would be easier to have a toggle-able option that made it easy to switch between say "normal' game play mode and a "quest" mode? That might also allow for an autoswitch so when a player enters a PVP type area to auto switch from "quest" mode back into "normal" mode.

4. Would it be possible to make it so there is a system that would auto rotate things around in a dungeon after a certain period of time? That way you would be able to reuse the same dungeons,but it would never be the same. That way you still have the challenge of figuring out where things are and keeps ppl from making and using guides.

(For example: say there is a master key you have to find that opens the door to the boss baddies layer in every dungeon. Would it be possible to make it so the master key and the boss baddie are almost never in the same room or location?)

If you could do that cool down period/time cycle stuff maybe instead of gaining heart pieces,and changing baddies and stuff the Hera's or whatever name you want to use could be come an alternative currency. You would be able to purchase stuff with those only or instead of gralats. I would give smallish amounts of the "Heras" as a reward for completing the dungeons,or quests and they would have the time limit "cool down" periods like the blob boss baddie did,and Pyrat bay quest does. That way they can only be accessed and done every so often. That would help to limit ppl from just repeatedly doing quests over and over.

Perhaps if magic is used they could use this as a way to purchase spells,or to pay to have your magic bar/meter refilled once depleated. Unless you decide to wait for the cool down period to end like suggested.

I could also see them changing it so you would get rewarded with special limited items on special occasions rather than the Hera's. I would also suggest special furniture items as rewards such as statues,or trophies that would have your stats on it for completing certain quests that would be shown when touched.

Another idea would be to change the old memorial building into a "HOF". Which would basically be a collection of some kind of posters,statues,or things that would be a list of the top players to complete specific quests the fastest ,or that got the highest score upon completion of said quest. Which would be a combo of different stats, and/or items obtained in the quest. I know just like in PSonline or xbox live there are trophy *****s a plenty that would want to be on every list possible,and that sort of thing alone would get at least a good hand full of players to do quests repeatedly.

The Hera hearts on their own probably wouldn't supply a sense of progression even if they were required to complete higher difficulty quest areas. There would be no incentive to get to these more difficult dungeons if the only reward was the opportunity to try a more difficult dungeon. The idea would probable strike with a few players, but the majority wouldn't be inspired by hearts which do nothing outside of PvE. It doesn't affect the group which towers, the group which spars, nor the group who PK. Therefore, to give a sense of reward and progression there would need to be item rewards or some other gift at the end of each dungeon.
So, if there needs to be a reward at the end of each dungeon anyway, it leaves the Hera Hearts idea, while interesting, comepletely redundant and less interesting than alternative options to open paths to dungeons. It's a lot cooler to give a player diving gear and have them dive to find the entrance to the next dungeon than require them to have 4 hearts total to enter. Then, not only does the player get a tool which can be used to enter the dungeon, but it also can be used to find secrets with similar entrances in the main world. Ex: Rat, Scuba Gear.

I agree with the whole items for progression over hearts it would make balancing a lot easier

+1

That and I hate quests.

Excellent idea dusty

I think you kind of missed the entire point of my idea... none of the hearts gained will benefit you in any way in PvP. Attacks from other players will always deplete your core hearts(3 main hearts) FIRST. Baddies will deplete your additional containers first, and if they run out, start depleting your core health.


Yes, since it's PvP it would deplete your core health.

I'm not sure yet. Either by color, or size or something like that. For example in Binding of Isaac you can get 'Soul Hearts' that are temporary(once you lose them, you can't refill them back up). They're denoted by being blue:
http://bindingofisaacguide.com/Image...c-Health-1.jpg

Do you mean your expanded hearts? If so, yes you'd be able to refill them. Since AP revolves around PvP, I see no reason it should effect hearts that only benefit questing.

Not sure what you mean.


The most ideal way to approach such a thing is procedural generation. And I would LOVE to do something like that in Classic, but it would be very difficult, and pretty much all action-oriented.

Magic is already implemented, and it refills itself after you use it.

The goal is not to have boring "prerequisites" but rather to be able to build up difficulty. Right now it is extremely hard to implement more complex/difficult areas because everyone has 3 hearts. I would never add a door that says "You must have 4 hearts to enter!" It's that I want to be able to add more difficult baddies. Right now players are able to slide by because they respawn where they die, but if dungeons are added this won't be happening. They will respawn at the beginning of the dungeon, thus this becomes a much more critical thing to avoid frustrating players.

Even if it's not a requirement to enter, it doesn't seem enough of a motivator to reward players with decreases difficulty in dungeons.

You would not only gain a heart from a dungeon, of course there will be items. However, I can't balance ALL dungeons and new content around all players having just 3 hearts. It becomes stale and boring as I have to dumb it all down so I don't overwhelm players. You have to remember that a good portion of the people playing are not skilled gamers.

Larger dungeons will reward items. However, there is a finite amount of possible items that can be rewarded as there are only so many ideas, so for smaller things(like hidden secrets and such) it becomes boring to reward just a hat, or other cosmetic things.

This is not a "THIS WILL REPLACE ALL REWARDS EVER" idea. This is a, "What else can we offer on top of new hats, shops and so on?[/i]

I imagine everyone will agree that we are all fond of new opportunities to make money. Even if it isn't a whole lot, there is less reason to worry about running out of activities or how to stay engaged while creating financial stability.

This would be great!

Just something on the side, referring back to the treasure maps thread idea I made a while ago, perhaps you could introduce a quest with the reward being the tools to read these maps? such as a compass, sextant etc. so that is possibly something.

On the other hand, the Hera hearts idea was a great suggestion, but ofc there should be tougher baddies to kill to 'balance' this, which itself is a reward also (the ability to kill tougher more skilled baddies would create enjoyment for players!)

AP balances additional hearts!!!

I'm not sure if this would be a good idea, players could easily get confused but thats only small it just sounds way too big. The hearts are fine for now in my opinion.

Well, there's also tears of Hera mentioned in the game that you could possibly trade with the gnomes for something.

But they're not. Like I said, it's hard to develop new content without dumbing it down for players who can only take a few hits before dying.

The question is not if there needs to be a change, but the best way to do it.

Adding to making content interesting, perhaps new baddies can have special moves or something of the sort? For example, a "bartender" baddy has a 10% chance to throw beer in your face instead of a normal attack. Upon the special, you would get the eggnog animation on your screen.

Your idea sounds pretty cool, and I feel would shift classic to more of an adventure game (which I'd prefer).

Same words as this walrus. Even though I don't play Classic (and Graal entirely), I would love to see how the results of this stick around.

I would love it if they exchanged Classic for Zodiac although it's not exactly the same kind of thing.

This is interesting. So players will have two separate HP's? Normal 3.0 for PvP and additional hearts for baddies etc. I do think there should be a way for the game to distinguish between death-by-player and death-by-baddy.

I do remember Rufus saying heart questing may come to classic ~1 year ago. He said high AP would have 100% of HP; mid-AP limited to 50% HP; low AP limited to 3HP.

I wouldnt mind either way. But if its going to be by AP, then to make PvP more balanced, a) have heavier HP handicaps; or b) change AP so that it drops more per kill.

I think it would be best and easiest if there where two different or seprate types of things used to keep track of the pvp and questing life points. I know there is a shop in game current with different "skins" representing your life points. So for example: What ever "Skins" players are using now would still be used to represent there pvp or "core" lp. Then a horizontal heath meter is added with bars in it that represents your quest lp's then when you complete a quest a new life point bar would be added to your health meter. You could do the same thing using a circlular pie meter with difined sections representing your quest lp and you would get more sections when quests are completed.

This type of set up would also avoid any issues with PVP and allow for healing of lps by potions/food items with out AP being a factor. Other wise If your trying to add in or use AP then I think your making it more complex than it needs to be. So in short just make several separate boxes labeled with and containing the respective differing lp's and magic meters.

I think I might have missed something in Dusty's OP. If this was introduced would the baddies on the world map still be "dumbed down" as they are now or would they be set up to be normal for noobs and stronger to effect players who are questing?

Instead of calling it extra hearts, why not label it as 'Body Armor' or if you really want to con the idea on it, name it 'Baddy Armor'. I can see why extra hearts would be really confusing to players, however, it's inevitable that it will be mistaken for actual health, but they'll learn to catch on regardless.

My personal suggestion would be that you can obtain Baddy Armor from armory stalls (where else would someone get them?), but for starters, you may only have one additional bar. Through questing, you unlock the ability to obtain more hearts, thus allowing you to take on more rigorous quests (not necessarily requiring a certain amount of hearts to enter, yet implying the benefits). After you lose it, you can easily buy more, or have a slight chance of getting it through an enemy drop, and like Twillit said, it should correspond to AP. Higher AP = More drops, such as bombs and arrows.

To add onto this, the gnomes should be a le to upgrade, but it is risky. Every level you raise the armor, there is a higher risk of it failing (breaking) this would add a balence and make it so the richest graalians dont depend on money, but luck.

Would be a big flip-over for Classic, and most players would quit if did so. But Zodiac does have it's charms and cons. Have been on it for quite a while. Another point, Delteria is basically Zodiac if that's what you're looking for.

One of the best devs you could hope to come up with something (and actually do it) has, and you guys argue or try to throw in your own ideas you want to see implemented... :I

He's talking about actual content for the current server, not some imaginary 'what if' server.

Stop being game designers and praise Dusty. >:O

That praising sh1t might work in the old world buddy but is outlawed in the iphone worlds

Btw he asked for their opinion

The hearts would work for that purpose, but they seems like an over complicated way to achieve what checkpoints or health pots do simply.

Not really, throwing heart pots at players left and right will just make it easier for everyone. Allowing players to explore and expand their health at their own leisure gives players a bit more choice in their difficulty.

I like the idea of implementing the magic bar from LBW.

I also like the idea of Magic in general. It could be pretty cool if you pulled it off.

I would definitely play iClassic more often if this were put in place.

Great ideas Dusty!

This sounds similar to my idea of making a 2nd separate health system to track your life points for questing.

I still don't see why there would be a need to incorporate the AP system with the new health system. The way you describe it kinda sounds like it would be come more of a luck based system rather than how its used now.

It sounds like your trying to turn Blueh's armor system into one like Diablo or D&D with it "breaking". How exactly does this balance it? If armor or a weapon breaks on those games you have to pay a black smith to repair them. So are you saying it would be in that same sense? Because then that would give an advantage to the richer graalians,because poorer graalians wouldn't be able to afford to have their armor fixed as easily.

Pretty awesome! I'm super excited right now! Finally something more I can really do and I would love to see boss battles and stuff like that to do. Maybe we could even do battles with multiple players against bosses!
Dusty this all sounds awesome and I can't wait to see how this progresses! :D

Well, what a pleasant surprise! I've come back from such graalians inactivity, and see this! :D

But in all seriousness. All these ideas sound quite enjoyable, especially the idea of magic. I look forward to seeing what will be implemented (assuming anything will) or what won't.

You have to complete a dungeon to get the hera hearts (I think) surely in the first dungeon you do the item can just tell you what it is when you get it. I genuinely can't see people getting confused by the hearts, the first 3 are your core health and any additional are for NPC only hera hearts. Seems simple enough.

not gud not gud.. towering..

there are people who wouldnt stop so not a good idea, and there could be also a glitch in spars.

these ideas makes admin work even harder not just that, they test it first.

These are some nice ideas Dusty. I would love to see the LBW Magic Meter implemented into the PvP system. Could you describe to us any spells that you are thinking about implementing if this was to be approved?

It's not really about magic-oriented things like spells, but rather for balancing any items that will have a PvP impact.

Oh I see what you mean now. You're talking about limiting the usage of bombs, and arrows so they can't be spammed. That would be a nice gameplay tweak, and it doesn't effect the balance at all.