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-   -   I challenge anyone to prove God is or isn't real. (https://www.graalians.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9073)

callimuc 08-02-2012 07:01 PM
I kind of think the same as fp4. There must have been something like a god which created something but yet I wonder who created god than. I just don't agree with the "If God didn't exist then I shouldn't either" part of him ;)

Quote:
Posted by fp4 (Post 172684)
I personally consider God (not attached to any religion) to be the entity that started the process that lead to the creation of everything. If God didn't exist then I shouldn't either. However there is no way I can prove it did/does or didn't/doesn't exist.

fp4 08-02-2012 07:17 PM
Quote:
Posted by callimuc (Post 172715)
I just don't agree with the "If God didn't exist then I shouldn't either" part
How come?

callimuc 08-02-2012 07:19 PM
Quote:
Posted by fp4 (Post 172725)
How come?
For me it sounds like: "There is no god? Get rid of me I shouldn't exist". If there wouldn't be a god, than I wouldn't think like that. It actually wouldn't change anything on myself or how I think about my life

Rexx 08-02-2012 07:25 PM
Quote:
Posted by fp4 (Post 172684)
I personally consider God (not attached to any religion) to be the entity that started the process that lead to the creation of everything. If God didn't exist then I shouldn't either. However there is no way I can prove it did/does or didn't/doesn't exist.
That very well may be true, but why should we jump to conclusions and believe something just because we need an explanation? We are simply not there yet scientifically to prove how it all started but that doesn't mean it's not true. You could say the same that it's not true that there isn't a god but evolution bears substantial evidence that has us on the path to understanding.


Quote:
Posted by Mr.$imons (Post 172709)
I believe because I don't wanna take a risk with being wrong.
That is probably the worst reason for having faith and a cowardly one at that.

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 07:27 PM
Meh, in my opinion (opinion alert) the idea of a god creating the universe is a cop out. That means the god must be omnipresent, so thus the creation of the universe is still not explained. I think there was never a beginning to the universe, though. As time itself is malleable (Satellites have to be adjusted to account for different time rates as they go very fast) that means that it must have been a product of the big bang since spacetime is one entity, not seperate. So as you get closer and closer to the point where the universe condenses into a singularity, time literally slows further and further down to the point where its infinitely slow and there is no beginning. As a singularity is infinitely small and infinitely massive. That is theoretically happening right now in the center of black holes across the universe since they are thought to have singularities in their center, although its in reverse. But thats just how I see it.

Rexx 08-02-2012 07:32 PM
Quote:
Posted by iHot (Post 172732)
Yeah big explosion=universe
Seems legit. It seems stupid our universe expanded??
It's the expansion of the universe, not a giant explosion where the universe popped up over night.

iHot 08-02-2012 07:33 PM
Quote:
Posted by Rexx (Post 172737)
It's the expansion of the universe, not a giant explosion where the universe popped up over night.
Proof??

*Ergaster 08-02-2012 07:34 PM
Do you believe God exist or doesn't exist? If you do; do you really think that there is a big man sitting on the clouds watching us humans run around like ants?

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 07:35 PM
Quote:
Posted by iHot (Post 172738)
Proof??
The galaxies are expanding in all directions. Its a fact found in astronomy.

Quote:
The metric expansion of space is the increase of distance with time between distant parts of the universe. It is an intrinsic expansion—that is, it is defined by the relative separation of parts of the universe and not by motion "outward" into preexisting space. The universe is not expanding "into" anything outside of itself. A frequently used 2-D analogy is the expansion of the surface of an expanding rubber balloon. In this analogy the universe has two spatial dimensions (the surface of the balloon) rather than three. As the balloon expands, any two points on its surface get farther and farther apart. Another common analogy is a rising loaf of raisin bread—as the loaf expands, the raisins inside it move farther and farther apart from each other.

Rexx 08-02-2012 07:37 PM
Quote:
Posted by iHot (Post 172738)
Proof??
You can research that yourself, I'm not here to educate you.

fp4 08-02-2012 07:40 PM
Quote:
Posted by callimuc (Post 172727)
For me it sounds like: "There is no god? Get rid of me I shouldn't exist". If there wouldn't be a god, than I wouldn't think like that. It actually wouldn't change anything on myself or how I think about my life
Well to me it's "there is something out there that made/makes me exist" and I accept the steps (Big Bang, Evolution) that led up to it but I just can't understand what made that first push to create everything other than "God did it" or the first piece of the puzzle invented itself.

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 07:50 PM
Quote:
Posted by Mr.$imons (Post 172744)
I'd just like someone to explain the big bang to me, it seems pretty ridiculous to me considering there couldn't be anything to trigger it.
I got this. Basically the universe started off in an extremely hot point called a singularity. Something that is infinitely small and infinitely massive. These have been widely presumed to already exist in black holes across the universe for decades and now also galaxies recently so the idea of this is not something crazy. At no point in time, the point where spacetime was infinitely insignificant along with space, the universe began to expand. So, if you follow me, the universe has always been expanding because of this idea of the singularity and it taking an infinite amount of time to reach the point where the big bang started. And this expansion continues to this day. The universes features themselves where formed by the cooling down of the energy emitted by the big bang into things like protons, neutrons, and electrons. Gravity did the rest eventually (this is a long process if you want me to explain further), forming hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe, and then hydrogen clouds. Where stars are still made today. After billions of years these stars began to swirl into galaxies. Stars would then naturally provide the elements within themselves for the creation of planets.

callimuc 08-02-2012 07:56 PM
Quote:
Posted by fp4 (Post 172748)
Well to me it's "there is something out there that made/makes me exist" and I accept the steps (Big Bang, Evolution) that led up to it but I just can't understand what made that first push to create everything other than "God did it" or the first piece of the puzzle invented itself.
Jea, but who created god? That's the 2nd question

Quote:
Posted by *Ergaster (Post 172741)
Do you believe God exist or doesn't exist? If you do; do you really think that there is a big man sitting on the clouds watching us humans run around like ants?
If you believe in god it doesn't mean you believe that he's a human or animal or something like that like it's believed in the christian, hindu, ... religion. Personally I don't think that god is anything in a human/animal form. Not sure how to explain it in english (not even sure how to explain it in german lol) but I think it's something like a "higher energy" form. Something you can't see in any way even though it's around us all the time. Like I said, I'm not sure how to explain it

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 07:59 PM
Quote:
Posted by callimuc (Post 172759)
If you believe in god it doesn't mean you believe that he's a human or animal or something like that like it's believed in the christian, hindu, ... religion. Personally I don't think that god is anything in a human/animal form. Not sure how to explain it in english (not even sure how to explain it in german lol) but I think it's something like a "higher energy" form. Something you can't see in any way even though it's around us all the time. Like I said, I'm not sure how to explain it
omnipresent.

Rexx 08-02-2012 07:59 PM
Quote:
Posted by -Albus (Post 172565)
Yes it does apply do modern day Muslims. Unfortunately, there are extremists that are killing in the name of religion. The "peaceful" Muslims can't really do a whole lot to take a stand either. Take a look at the United States. After the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Muslims in the U.S. have had a pretty difficult time. How do you expect someone that is discriminated against by a whole nation to take a stand for what they believe in, when what they believe in is part of the reason they are being discriminated against? It is a religion of peace, ask any Muslim in the U.S. and they will tell you that. Like I said before, it's what you hear about it that gives it a bad name.

If everything was solved by reason and thinking only, the world could be a much more dangerous place. Not everyone may have good morals like you, and might result to stealing and violence to get what they want or need. It sounds crazy, but some people need religion to help keep them on the right track.

Back on the topic of your thread, nobody is going to be able to prove that god is real, just like you can not prove that gravity is real.
Lol if gravity isn't real than how are you standing on your two feet without floating off into space? Now you're just being dumb.
Religion certainly isn't contributing to the peace of the world, it actually has a negative effect, so you can only imagine it would be better without it.
And it's only human nature that some people are violent or want to do bad things, and if religion is the only thing keeping someone from behaving like that then they need to seek help and join the rest of the modern 21st century.

Ethnic groups in the past have proven they can stand up for themselves I don't see why Muslims can't do the same. I guess they don't care that extremists represent their religion and convey a distorted image for the rest of them.

callimuc 08-02-2012 08:00 PM
Quote:
Posted by Pimpsy G. (Post 172762)
omnipresent.
yea

fp4 08-02-2012 08:04 PM
Quote:
Posted by callimuc (Post 172759)
Jea, but who created god? That's the 2nd question
Itself. Which sounds impossible but I don't know how it could happen any other way. However like you mentioned before it doesn't really matter, and shouldn't influence our day to day activities.

Rexx 08-02-2012 08:06 PM
Quote:
Posted by fp4 (Post 172768)
Itself. Which sounds impossible but I don't know how it could happen any other way. However like you mentioned before it doesn't really matter, and shouldn't influence our day to day activities.
It really shouldn't, yet that is what religion teaches its followers.

Engel 08-02-2012 08:07 PM
I cannot say if he does or doesn't exist; but what I do know that íf he exists he is an awfull person, if you see what happens (and happened) in the world..

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 08:10 PM
Quote:
Posted by fp4 (Post 172768)
Itself. Which sounds impossible but I don't know how it could happen any other way. However like you mentioned before it doesn't really matter, and shouldn't influence our day to day activities.
Quote:
Do we need a God to set it all up so a Big Bang can bang? … Our everyday experience makes us convinced that everything that happens must be caused by something that occurred earlier in time. So it’s natural for us to assume that something—perhaps God—must have caused the universe to come into existence. But when we’re talking about the universe as a whole, that isn’t necessarily so.
…
The role played by time at the beginning of the universe is, I believe, the final key to removing the need for a Grand Designer, and revealing how the universe created itself. … Time itself must come to a stop [at the singularity]. You can’t get to a time before the big bang, because there was no time before the big bang. We have finally found something that does not have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed. Since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything. … So when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang, so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It’s like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth. The Earth is a sphere. It does not have an edge, so looking for it is a futile exercise.”[1]
~Stefan hawking

callimuc 08-02-2012 08:18 PM
Quote:
Posted by Engel (Post 172771)
I cannot say if he does or doesn't exist; but what I do know that íf he exists he is an awfull person, if you see what happens (and happened) in the world..
It's not him doing it, it's the humanity. Why should god touch something the humans have been starting? People always have to learn / feel the pain (in this case) to actually learn. Just touching that and remove all weapons or however you imagine it (probably like in a game) would be plain wrong in my opinion. People sometimes just have to learn what they actually did/supported when they lose someone. If it is your time to die, it will be your time. Sure you are always upset than and probably nothing can change that on a normal human

Godoco 08-02-2012 08:25 PM
Spoiler
Is there really any way to prove the existence of God? It’s possible that either you believe or you don’t. Two separate paths branch out before each of us; the path of atheism on one hand and the path of God or gods on the other. One path denies accountability to any superior being other than that of nature’s collective consciousness. The other requires obedience and ultimate accountability to the government of a higher power. Atheism teaches that all things including our own existence are the result of chance. Theism (belief in god) ascribes design and order to supernatural intelligence. “Which do I choose?” is not really the most important question. Instead, the really big question is, “How do I decide,” or “How do I determine which one is the truth?” not “truth for me” but actual provable fact.
It’s rather ironic when you think about it, but there really is only one safe choice. If you choose the path of atheism and it turns out your wrong, you’re screwed! But if you choose the path of belief in God and it turns out you’re wrong, you’ve simply hedged your bet. You lose absolutely nothing by being wrong and you gain everything if you end up being right. As clearly rock solid as this logic may be, it still doesn’t answer the question, “What is the truth?”
It’s been said that the existence of a supreme being is self evident. But what does that really mean? I’m afraid I’m probably going to step on some toes here, but consider this. NASA sends a ship into outer space, to the moon, to Mars, wherever they want. Would you say that these spacecraft and their missions are the result of intelligent design and planning or merely the fortunate consequences of natural selection and chance? I realize that I’m being absurd here but I’m proving a point of self evident truth. How does it make any logical sense to attribute the existence and technology of spacecraft, computers, automobiles, and the like to intelligent design by human production, while at the same time pointing to the complex living mechanisms of this planet and asserting they are the result of natural accidental luck? Unlike modern technology, these creatures cannot be reproduced or duplicated in even the most technically scientific laboratory, I’m sorry, but logic and common sense does not tolerate two opposite conclusions to both be reckoned as truth. If intelligent design is responsible for all sophisticated and technical machinery, then there is a God. If all complex machinery organic or mechanical can be attributed to random chance then there is no need for a supreme being. The truth is self evident. The manufacturers label says, “Made by God.”

Callimuc, heres your goodies: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9235735AAsqya2

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 08:43 PM
Quote:
Posted by GodoT (Post 172790)
Callimuc, heres your goodies:
Oh please. All that person is saying has already been beaten out the window many many times and he has obviously not looked into the big bang or any theory for that matter.

Quote:
Two separate paths branch out before each of us; the path of atheism on one hand and the path of God or gods on the other. One path denies accountability to any superior being other than that of nature’s collective consciousness. The other requires obedience and ultimate accountability to the government of a higher power.
This is bull crap. There isn't two paths, if you have an allegiance to one path you have a problem. I'm not atheist or religious, im whatever I believe is the most reliable answer to the universes existence and I dont have any opinion on a god because that is outside the realm of reason.

Quote:
How does it make any logical sense to attribute the existence and technology of spacecraft, computers, automobiles, and the like to intelligent design by human production, while at the same time pointing to the complex living mechanisms of this planet and asserting they are the result of natural accidental luck?
Again, further proof this person does not have any experience on the other side of the argument. Hes just playing the "god" card to the seemingly high sophistication of our society. Its an illusion that our society is a society of high order. The waste we emit and the fact that we cannot produce more energy than we take in shows we are a society of decreasing order, or disorder.

What he is saying is basically the lowest form of rationality in this argument: that all of this is too complicated and shiny to come from a big bang and chance so somehow that means there must be a god because in his mind there's only two possibilities. And he is also gullible enough to fall for the "Hell" card (somehow the possible existence of a god deems that Christianity is right) to reel him in saying that he doesn't loose anything and I would loose everything. This person does not have enough education to yield a reliable answer. Again, i will point to the fantastic mind of Stephan hawking to make my statement:

Quote:
Do we need a God to set it all up so a Big Bang can bang? … Our everyday experience makes us convinced that everything that happens must be caused by something that occurred earlier in time. So it’s natural for us to assume that something—perhaps God—must have caused the universe to come into existence. But when we’re talking about the universe as a whole, that isn’t necessarily so.
…
The role played by time at the beginning of the universe is, I believe, the final key to removing the need for a Grand Designer, and revealing how the universe created itself. … Time itself must come to a stop [at the singularity]. You can’t get to a time before the big bang, because there was no time before the big bang. We have finally found something that does not have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed. Since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything. … So when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang, so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It’s like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth. The Earth is a sphere. It does not have an edge, so looking for it is a futile exercise.”[1]
~Stefan hawking

Rexx 08-02-2012 08:45 PM
Quote:
Posted by GodoT (Post 172790)
Spoiler
Is there really any way to prove the existence of God? It’s possible that either you believe or you don’t. Two separate paths branch out before each of us; the path of atheism on one hand and the path of God or gods on the other. One path denies accountability to any superior being other than that of nature’s collective consciousness. The other requires obedience and ultimate accountability to the government of a higher power. Atheism teaches that all things including our own existence are the result of chance. Theism (belief in god) ascribes design and order to supernatural intelligence. “Which do I choose?” is not really the most important question. Instead, the really big question is, “How do I decide,” or “How do I determine which one is the truth?” not “truth for me” but actual provable fact.
It’s rather ironic when you think about it, but there really is only one safe choice. If you choose the path of atheism and it turns out your wrong, you’re screwed! But if you choose the path of belief in God and it turns out you’re wrong, you’ve simply hedged your bet. You lose absolutely nothing by being wrong and you gain everything if you end up being right. As clearly rock solid as this logic may be, it still doesn’t answer the question, “What is the truth?”
It’s been said that the existence of a supreme being is self evident. But what does that really mean? I’m afraid I’m probably going to step on some toes here, but consider this. NASA sends a ship into outer space, to the moon, to Mars, wherever they want. Would you say that these spacecraft and their missions are the result of intelligent design and planning or merely the fortunate consequences of natural selection and chance? I realize that I’m being absurd here but I’m proving a point of self evident truth. How does it make any logical sense to attribute the existence and technology of spacecraft, computers, automobiles, and the like to intelligent design by human production, while at the same time pointing to the complex living mechanisms of this planet and asserting they are the result of natural accidental luck? Unlike modern technology, these creatures cannot be reproduced or duplicated in even the most technically scientific laboratory, I’m sorry, but logic and common sense does not tolerate two opposite conclusions to both be reckoned as truth. If intelligent design is responsible for all sophisticated and technical machinery, then there is a God. If all complex machinery organic or mechanical can be attributed to random chance then there is no need for a supreme being. The truth is self evident. The manufacturers label says, “Made by God.”

Callimuc, heres your goodies: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9235735AAsqya2
Quote:
It’s rather ironic when you think about it, but there really is only one safe choice. If you choose the path of atheism and it turns out your wrong, you’re screwed! But if you choose the path of belief in God and it turns out you’re wrong, you’ve simply hedged your bet. You lose absolutely nothing by being wrong and you gain everything if you end up being right.
Sounds like a God fearing Christian. Again pushing religion as the only right choice.

iHot 08-02-2012 08:52 PM
How about the Graal Gods?

Engel 08-02-2012 08:52 PM
Quote:
Posted by callimuc (Post 172782)
It's not him doing it, it's the humanity. Why should god touch something the humans have been starting? People always have to learn / feel the pain (in this case) to actually learn. Just touching that and remove all weapons or however you imagine it (probably like in a game) would be plain wrong in my opinion. People sometimes just have to learn what they actually did/supported when they lose someone. If it is your time to die, it will be your time. Sure you are always upset than and probably nothing can change that on a normal human
So if you see a tsunami flooding half a country killing thousands of people or having an earthquake destroying many cities and with that taking many lives- is that our fault?

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 08:54 PM
Quote:
Posted by Engel (Post 172809)
So if you see a tsunami flooding half a country killing thousands of people or having an earthquake destroying many cities and with that taking many lives- is that our fault?
GLOBAL WARMINGGG CLIMATE CHANGE WE DIDNT LISTEN!!!

Rexx 08-02-2012 08:59 PM
Quote:
Posted by Engel (Post 172809)
So if you see a tsunami flooding half a country killing thousands of people or having an earthquake destroying many cities and with that taking many lives- is that our fault?
No, that would be the Earth's and its natural forces. See this goes back to times when people thought the weather was controlled by gods. There is no higher being that controls these things, it's natural cause.

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 09:13 PM
Quote:
Posted by Rexx (Post 172819)
No, that would be the Earth's and its natural forces. See this goes back to times when people thought the weather was controlled by gods. There is no higher being that controls these things, it's natural cause.
But if someone dies there must be a reason to justify it and make their loved ones more comfortable! That's another reason why the devil is around. To slap evil on the names of people and events to make others feel better. I personally believe there is no such thing as evil. Even hitler is not an evil entity. No one is. That idea is dangerous and relative and the very thought of putting the name "Evil" to someone is irrational and strange to me.

-Albus 08-02-2012 09:23 PM
Quote:
Posted by Rexx (Post 172764)
Lol if gravity isn't real than how are you standing on your two feet without floating off into space? Now you're just being dumb.
Religion certainly isn't contributing to the peace of the world, it actually has a negative effect, so you can only imagine it would be better without it.
And it's only human nature that some people are violent or want to do bad things, and if religion is the only thing keeping someone from behaving like that then they need to seek help and join the rest of the modern 21st century.

Ethnic groups in the past have proven they can stand up for themselves I don't see why Muslims can't do the same. I guess they don't care that extremists represent their religion and convey a distorted image for the rest of them.
Gravity is only a theory. Sure, it makes sense, but how do we know there is this magical thing called "gravity" that keeps us from floating into space? Have you ever seen this "gravity" under a microscope, or seen pictures of this magical force called "gravity?" No, because it is only a theory, and you can not prove that it exists just like Christians can not prove that god exists.

Take a look at some local churches. Are you telling me that these people that do food drives and go out and help the homeless are not contributing any help? Are they causing problems by feeding the homeless? Yeah, I guess you're right, helping those less fortunate is putting a real damper on the rest of the world.

And yes ethnic groups have stood up for themselves in the past, and it is almost always met with oppression. I'm sure you wouldn't know what it is like since I'm guessing you are not a minority, but could you imagine trying to fight for what you believe in when everyone else disagrees with you because they don't even know what you believe in?

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 09:27 PM
Quote:
Posted by -Albus (Post 172833)
And yes ethnic groups have stood up for themselves in the past, and it is almost always met with oppression. I'm sure you wouldn't know what it is like since I'm guessing you are not a minority, but could you imagine trying to fight for what you believe in when everyone else disagrees with you because they don't even know what you believe in?
I live in a very, very christian community. Everyone I know is christian and I was indoctrinated into a christian school. People ask me when we get into these discussions, "So why do you believe the world started with an explosion? That just sounds stupid." They don't even take the time to research another persons opinion before assuming things about them. I know what you mean.

callimuc 08-02-2012 09:34 PM
Quote:
Posted by Engel (Post 172809)
So if you see a tsunami flooding half a country killing thousands of people or having an earthquake destroying many cities and with that taking many lives- is that our fault?
I had my opinion based on the wars and so on. Such stuff is made by the nature and needs to awake people living not giving a **** about what they have and how lucky they are. After a tsunami you probably completely realize how wonderful your life was, what you had and how lucky you could have been to have a home. All that will be gone after a tsunami and than you realize - you only looked at what you didn't have, not what you had.

Rexx 08-02-2012 09:42 PM
Quote:
Posted by -Albus (Post 172833)
Gravity is only a theory. Sure, it makes sense, but how do we know there is this magical thing called "gravity" that keeps us from floating into space? Have you ever seen this "gravity" under a microscope, or seen pictures of this magical force called "gravity?" No, because it is only a theory, and you can not prove that it exists just like Christians can not prove that god exists.

Take a look at some local churches. Are you telling me that these people that do food drives and go out and help the homeless are not contributing any help? Are they causing problems by feeding the homeless? Yeah, I guess you're right, helping those less fortunate is putting a real damper on the rest of the world.

And yes ethnic groups have stood up for themselves in the past, and it is almost always met with oppression. I'm sure you wouldn't know what it is like since I'm guessing you are not a minority, but could you imagine trying to fight for what you believe in when everyone else disagrees with you because they don't even know what you believe in?
Anyone can carry out good deeds without being religious, giving food to the homeless is minuscule effort on a global scale and the bigger picture. I've yet to see what religion has positively contributed on a worldwide level.

Again you're just showing disregard for anything I'm saying by assuming, once again, something about me personally. I'll share with you that I am half South Korean and "white", I am very much a minority, I have lived places where I was the only minority in my school. I am lucky now to live in a vastly multicultural and mostly open-minded city where no certain one belief is the norm.

callimuc 08-02-2012 09:42 PM
Quote:
Posted by GodoT (Post 172790)
Spoiler
Is there really any way to prove the existence of God? It’s possible that either you believe or you don’t. Two separate paths branch out before each of us; the path of atheism on one hand and the path of God or gods on the other. One path denies accountability to any superior being other than that of nature’s collective consciousness. The other requires obedience and ultimate accountability to the government of a higher power. Atheism teaches that all things including our own existence are the result of chance. Theism (belief in god) ascribes design and order to supernatural intelligence. “Which do I choose?” is not really the most important question. Instead, the really big question is, “How do I decide,” or “How do I determine which one is the truth?” not “truth for me” but actual provable fact.
It’s rather ironic when you think about it, but there really is only one safe choice. If you choose the path of atheism and it turns out your wrong, you’re screwed! But if you choose the path of belief in God and it turns out you’re wrong, you’ve simply hedged your bet. You lose absolutely nothing by being wrong and you gain everything if you end up being right. As clearly rock solid as this logic may be, it still doesn’t answer the question, “What is the truth?”
It’s been said that the existence of a supreme being is self evident. But what does that really mean? I’m afraid I’m probably going to step on some toes here, but consider this. NASA sends a ship into outer space, to the moon, to Mars, wherever they want. Would you say that these spacecraft and their missions are the result of intelligent design and planning or merely the fortunate consequences of natural selection and chance? I realize that I’m being absurd here but I’m proving a point of self evident truth. How does it make any logical sense to attribute the existence and technology of spacecraft, computers, automobiles, and the like to intelligent design by human production, while at the same time pointing to the complex living mechanisms of this planet and asserting they are the result of natural accidental luck? Unlike modern technology, these creatures cannot be reproduced or duplicated in even the most technically scientific laboratory, I’m sorry, but logic and common sense does not tolerate two opposite conclusions to both be reckoned as truth. If intelligent design is responsible for all sophisticated and technical machinery, then there is a God. If all complex machinery organic or mechanical can be attributed to random chance then there is no need for a supreme being. The truth is self evident. The manufacturers label says, “Made by God.”

Callimuc, heres your goodies: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9235735AAsqya2
Please stop posting crap you googled and some fool has been posting somewhere. Like Rexx said thats probably a god fearing christian trying to get you also into his religion. I'm not an atheist or religious like pimpsy, I make my own decision (+think like fp4 in this case) rather than having to choose one way or listening to crap based on stuff other people have been overdoing

Quote:
If you choose the path of atheism and it turns out your wrong, you’re screwed! But if you choose the path of belief in God and it turns out you’re wrong, you’ve simply hedged your bet. You lose absolutely nothing by being wrong and you gain everything if you end up being right.
That's the biggest bull****. If you are/were wrong than you are/were wrong. There is no goodie for you if you believed in god even though he doesn't exist than. Make up your own mind or believe in whatever religion you are (in case) rather than quoting bull**** from the internet.

-Albus 08-02-2012 09:48 PM
Quote:
Posted by Rexx (Post 172848)
Anyone can carry out good deeds without being religious, giving food to the homeless is minuscule effort on a global scale and the bigger picture. I've yet to see what religion has positively contributed on a worldwide level.

Again you're just showing disregard for anything I'm saying by assuming, once again, something about me personally. I'll share with you that I am half South Korean and "white", I am very much a minority, I have lived places where I was the only minority in my school. I am lucky now to live in a vastly multicultural and mostly open-minded city where no certain one belief is the norm.
Yes, but you said religion has a negative effect on the world, which is not true. You're right, anyone can carry out good deeds, but you disregard when people carry out good deeds in the name of religion, but seem quick to jump out all the negative deeds people do in the name of religion. Like I've stated before, everything you seem to "know" about Muslims you've heard from the media, which is why you have such a negative view towards Islam.

Yes, I was assuming, I apologize. However, as South Korean do you feel you face the same type of discrimination that a Muslim does? I know there are negative stereotypes associated with being Korean, but you rarely hear those. Most of the stereotypes you hear probably have to do with you being really good at video games, or really good at math. You probably do not get called a terrorist based on the color of your skin, or have to face extra security measures while boarding an airplane because of your name. You say you live in an open minded city now, so why don't you have a more open mind and try to see things from a religious person's point of view before calling them out on their beliefs?

Engel 08-02-2012 09:52 PM
Quote:
Posted by Rexx (Post 172819)
No, that would be the Earth's and its natural forces. See this goes back to times when people thought the weather was controlled by gods. There is no higher being that controls these things, it's natural cause.
We're talking about if god exists. In which case he could have stopped it.

Quote:
Posted by callimuc (Post 172840)
I had my opinion based on the wars and so on. Such stuff is made by the nature and needs to awake people living not giving a **** about what they have and how lucky they are. After a tsunami you probably completely realize how wonderful your life was, what you had and how lucky you could have been to have a home. All that will be gone after a tsunami and than you realize - you only looked at what you didn't have, not what you had.
If god exists he could have saved the lives of those people. He still is an awfull person if he needs to kill tenthousands just to let people realize how much they should love their lives.

Pimpsy G. 08-02-2012 09:55 PM
Okay this page has reached 10 pages and its starting to get to the point where no one is happy. Its just going to go on forever.

Rexx 08-02-2012 09:57 PM
Quote:
Posted by -Albus (Post 172851)
Yes, but you said religion has a negative effect on the world, which is not true. You're right, anyone can carry out good deeds, but you disregard when people carry out good deeds in the name of religion, but seem quick to jump out all the negative deeds people do in the name of religion. Like I've stated before, everything you seem to "know" about Muslims you've heard from the media, which is why you have such a negative view towards Islam.

Yes, I was assuming, I apologize. However, as South Korean do you feel you face the same type of discrimination that a Muslim does? I know there are negative stereotypes associated with being Korean, but you rarely hear those. Most of the stereotypes you hear probably have to do with you being really good at video games, or really good at math. You probably do not get called a terrorist based on the color of your skin, or have to face extra security measures while boarding an airplane because of your name. You say you live in an open minded city now, so why don't you have a more open mind and try to see things from a religious person's point of view before calling them out on their beliefs?
I am not really calling them out but questioning their beliefs because they are baseless, its not just Islam. I dont agree with any discrimination of anyone and it's sad that happens, I have felt personally discriminated against before and I'm sure many people have as well and know its not a good feeling.

callimuc 08-02-2012 09:57 PM
Quote:
Posted by Engel (Post 172855)
If god exists he could have saved the lives of those people. He still is an awfull person if he needs to kill tenthousands just to let people realize how much they should love their lives.
So people would never learn? When would you bother more for it? When one person is dieing or 10.000's? Like I said before if it's your time to die than it's your time to die, even though that sounds harsh.
And if you want to look at it like that: you bastard are wasting energy on a computer while the global warming is raising causing the ice to smelt on the northpole which causes flooting on a ****load of coasts/countries.

Pazx 08-02-2012 10:10 PM
You guys aren't very good at this.

Imprint 08-02-2012 10:11 PM
Quote:
Posted by spades of feare

Darwinism, the big bang, pangea,heliocentricity
If you are going to post theories then post evidence. You just posted ideas, the same thing religion does.

Also, keep it nice. :)

Rexx 08-02-2012 10:22 PM
Quote:
Posted by Imprint (Post 172878)
If you are going to post theories then post evidence. You just posted ideas, the same thing religion does.
There is evidence for Darwinism, and somewhat for Pangea but that won't ever be fully proven as fact even thought it's taught as such in grade school science classes. Posting explanations for everything here would be ridiculous when someone can easily research it on their own. Again religion has baseless ideas, at least the scientific ideas are of legitimate reasoning.

Imprint 08-02-2012 10:30 PM
Quote:
Posted by Rexx
There is evidence for Darwinism, and somewhat for Pangea but that won't ever be fully proven as fact even thought it's taught as such in grade school science classes. Posting explanations for everything here would be ridiculous when someone can easily research it on their own. Again religion has baseless ideas, at least the scientific ideas are of legitimate reasoning.
I never said I didn't take the theories as fact. Actually, I am athiest but if you make a thread asking religious people to prove their god or gods then if your views are challenged you should be prepared to defend your side. Don't be hypocritical.

Yephenpeace 08-03-2012 07:13 AM
Quote:
Posted by Rexx (Post 172885)
There is evidence for Darwinism, and somewhat for Pangea but that won't ever be fully proven as fact even thought it's taught as such in grade school science classes. Posting explanations for everything here would be ridiculous when someone can easily research it on their own. Again religion has baseless ideas, at least the scientific ideas are of legitimate reasoning.
There's "scientific evidence" for both religion and evolution. I personally think it all comes down to feelings and your own personal opinion. This thread is somewhat pointless considering you can't "prove" that God is real, and you can't prove that he isn't. Believe what you want based on your own experiences and knowledge. For every logical theory, there is always someone who can refute it with an alternative mindset.

I can easily see this thread getting out of hand, but we'll see...

Rexx 08-03-2012 07:30 AM
Quote:
Posted by Yephenpeace (Post 173112)
There's "scientific evidence" for both religion and evolution. I personally think it all comes down to feelings and your own personal opinion. This thread is somewhat pointless considering you can't "prove" that God is real, and you can't prove that he isn't. Believe what you want based on your own experiences and knowledge. For every logical theory, there is always someone who can refute it with an alternative mindset.

I can easily see this thread getting out of hand, but we'll see...
The OP is rhetorical, I know obviously nobody can prove it, thus starting the debate.
And what scientific evidence is there for religion? ;o

Yephenpeace 08-03-2012 08:10 AM
Quote:
Posted by Rexx (Post 173117)
The OP is rhetorical, I know obviously nobody can prove it, thus starting the debate.
And what scientific evidence is there for religion? ;o
Haha, I don't know. Do some unbiased research on the topic if you want.

Just a few google searches and I already found some controversial websites about the topic. Like so: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread163678/pg1

I don't support absolutely everything that website says, I'm just telling you that people have pretty convincing arguments for both sides. I've never really believed in evolution, but I'm not some religious nut who claims to know everything either. I just think for myself, I guess.

Healy 08-03-2012 09:54 AM
Nothing is 'real'. Rather, we have ideas as we portray as 'real'. An apple is an apple only because we had the idea that, "Hey, that red fruit should be an apple!" Same is for everything else natural.

I, for one, am agnostic, because I'm not going to bother wasting my time worrying about the Almighty above.

Pazx 08-03-2012 10:08 AM
I hope you're kidding Healy, an apple is still real no matter what you say about it.

Healy 08-03-2012 10:20 AM
Quote:
Posted by Pazx
I hope you're kidding Healy, an apple is still real no matter what you say about it.
Where is your proof it is called an apple?

Pazx 08-03-2012 10:29 AM
Excuse me, I said nowhere it is called an apple, which of course it is. I merely said it still exists and is therefore real, no matter what you say about it. You can call it an orange, it's still real.


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