assuming your argument is correct, how do you deal with regressive belief systems? you're saying that if I criticize a certain policy, I'm also criticizing everyone who follows it. criticizing a religion is fundamentally arguing against an irrational thought. have you any reason why anyone shouldn't be doing that?  

Posted by Kosiris

assuming your argument is correct, how do you deal with regressive belief systems? you're saying that if I criticize a certain policy, I'm also criticizing everyone who follows it. criticizing a religion is fundamentally arguing against an irrational thought. have you any reason why anyone shouldn't be doing that?

I never said you shouldn't. I just said that to criticize the religious beliefs is to criticize those who believe them. To say the Christian god is irrational is to say the beliefs of Christians is irrational. They are one in the same. It's perfectly fine to do so. Religions aren't exempt from criticism. If what someone believes is bad or wrong in your opinion, then it's perfectly fine to criticize them. That's exactly what politics is and everyone does that all the time. Liberals are what their political beliefs are, and Consercatives are what their political beliefs are. It's an easy concept that Crono brought up in the first place by saying I was confusing the criticism of Islam with criticism of Muslims, and I corrected him by saying I was not confusing anything. Then it turned into an argument of him saying multiple times the same thing: "I'm right you're wrong".

Posted by Colin

Difference in a JOKE(not a real religion) that worships a spaghetti monster for fun and a serious religion that preaches death to homosexuals.

If your argument is criticising Islam is criticising all Muslims for their beliefs then you are implying all Muslims support the beliefs of the Quran which implies all Muslims support the terrorism and mistreament of homosexuals and women, which ruins the whole argument you've been making.

No, I specifically pointed out that there are different interpretations & beliefs in religions. Christians aren't homogenous. Catholics believe things far differently than people like me, Lutherans, believe. But you would be wrong to say Christianity believes what Catholicism believes, and that's what many people are doing with Islam. It's the overgeneralization problem again. So yes, to criticize Islam as a whole (which is what was being criticized) is to criticize Muslims. Break it down by different sects or beliefs and it's a different story.  

you said criticism of Islam/muslims is wrong though  

Posted by Kosiris

you said criticism of Islam/muslims is wrong though

Quote me, because I never said that in the way you're alleging. Overgeneralizing or labeling them is wrong. Even if I think it's wrong, that's my opinion. Wrong doesn't mean can't. It's wrong in my opinion to kill someone, but you still can if you wish. It's wrong in my opinion to criticize Islam as a whole, or to criticize all Muslims inside an overgeneralized label, but you still can if you wish. I criticize terrorism, but I do that without criticizing Islam or all Muslims because I recognize that they are separate from one another.

Just as when I wrongly characterized Thallen as a hard-right Conservative based on some of the viewpoints I've seen from him. A great example of overgeneralization and he called me out on it, just as the overgeneralization of Islam and Muslims should be called out.  

Posted by PigParty

If I say the idea of a flying spaghetti monster as a god is stupid, then I am calling out pastafarians and saying their beliefs are stupid.

making valid criticisms of a belief is not the same thing as targeting their followers, what part of that are you not understanding? if you say atheism is stupid you're not targeting me directly and you're completely entitled to do so.  

Posted by Crono

making valid criticisms of a belief is not the same thing as targeting their followers

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the validity of the criticism matters when it doesn't. Valid or not, to criticize one's beliefs is to criticize the person. A person is what they believe.

Posted by Crono

if you say atheism is stupid you're not targeting me directly and you're completely entitled to do so.

correct, you are indirectly targeting them, and are still completely entitled to do so.  

Posted by PigParty

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the validity of the criticism matters when it doesn't. Valid or not, to criticize one's beliefs is to criticize the person. A person is what they believe.

You realize it's irrelevant whether the beliefs belong to a person or not, you can criticize the belief itself and not give a flying **** if someone is offended because you are not criticizing the person. The arguement you're making is that criticizing a belief is directly targeting the follower when:

correct, you are -->indirectly<-- targeting them, and are still completely entitled to do so.

 

Posted by Crono

You realize it's irrelevant whether the beliefs belong to a person or not, you can criticize the belief itself and not give a flying **** if someone is offended because you are not criticizing the person. The arguement you're making is that criticizing a belief is directly targeting the follower when:

Just because you don't give a flying **** if someone is offended doesn't mean you're not criticizing the person. I never said criticizing a belief is directly targeting anyone; you did. I did say it is indirectly targeting those who believe in that. There's a difference between saying a belief is stupid and saying something like science shows no evidence that a god exists. One is criticizing the persons who believe it, another is questioning the belief. You can make things up all day, but reality remains the same.  

Posted by PigParty

Just because you don't give a flying **** if someone is offended doesn't mean you're not criticizing the person. I never said criticizing a belief is directly targeting anyone; you did. I did say it is indirectly targeting those who believe in that. There's a difference between saying a belief is stupid and saying something like science shows no evidence that a god exists. One is criticizing the persons who believe it, another is questioning the belief. You can make things up all day, but reality remains the same.

Islam inspires barbaric behavior among many groups of people.

Stop nitpicking, you know what he's getting at.  

Posted by PigParty

Just because you don't give a flying **** if someone is offended doesn't mean you're not criticizing the person. I never said criticizing a belief is directly targeting anyone; you did. I did say it is indirectly targeting those who believe in that. There's a difference between saying a belief is stupid and saying something like science shows no evidence that a god exists. One is criticizing the persons who believe it, another is questioning the belief. You can make things up all day, but reality remains the same.

yea, the reality is that being critical of a belief is not the same thing as being critical of a person. i gave examples before and you dismissed them so i dont even.  

Posted by Crono

yea, the reality is that being critical of a belief is not the same thing as being critical of a person. i gave examples before and you dismissed them so i dont even.

I argued against you. You dismissed me. Once again, reality is still reality, no matter what you wish to believe.

Posted by Fulgore

Islam inspires barbaric behavior among many groups of people.

Stop nitpicking, you know what he's getting at.

That's wrong, though. That's like saying Christianity inspires racism and barbaric behavior. I'm not nitpicking at all. I didn't even start this. If I'm nitpicking, you're nitpicking too considering you're all just counter-arguing in a never-ending discussion. Two-way roads. It's easy to dismiss everything I say and believe that you're not doing the exact same thing as me. So to you: stop nitpicking, you know what I'm getting at.

Islamophobia is, by definition, "dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force." It's against Islam or Muslims, rather than just Islam, because they are one in the same. Otherwise Islamophobia would be different from dislike or prejudice against Muslims.  

Posted by PigParty

I argued against you. You dismissed me. Once again, reality is still reality, no matter what you wish to believe.



That's wrong, though. That's like saying Christianity inspires racism and barbaric behavior. I'm not nitpicking at all. I didn't even start this. If I'm nitpicking, you're nitpicking too considering you're all just counter-arguing in a never-ending discussion. Two-way roads. It's easy to dismiss everything I say and believe that you're not doing the exact same thing as me. So to you: stop nitpicking, you know what I'm getting at.

Islamophobia is, by definition, "dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force." It's against Islam or Muslims, rather than just Islam, because they are one in the same. Otherwise Islamophobia would be different from dislike or prejudice against Muslims.

I know what you're getting at, but what you're getting at just isn't right. Idk how else to explain it to you, I've tried several times.  

Posted by Fulgore

I know what you're getting at, but what you're getting at just isn't right. Idk how else to explain it to you, I've tried several times.

So have I. Since they are opinions, and I too feel that I am right and you are wrong, we can agree to disagree, or I can at least.

My overall point for this thread is that we shouldn't judge an entire population based on the actions of a select few. Two correlating factors do not automatically equal a direct connection. Most of our prisons and crimes in America are committed by African Americans, but we don't think of all African Americans as criminals, nor are they criminals because they are African American. There's many more complex, deeper reasons for peoples' actions. There's over a billion peaceful Muslims in the world. It's wrong to generalize all of them because of the actions of a few. If they dedicate their lives to a book with teachings and ways of life - and out of 1.6 billion, a few thousand twist the words of it - then to say that the book itself is the problem isn't backed up by the statistics. There's far deeper problems other than simply saying the easy thing: that Islam is the problem.  

When did this turn into a war about races  

Posted by RyanB

When did this turn into a war about races

Islam isn't a race.