Posted by Dusty

Nothing, hence why I listen to almost all feedback that comes through this forum and on the server whenever I am on.

Is there a spreadsheet somewhere that would outline/catalogue all the feedback given here on the forum? If not, would that be helpful?

Mainly I'm talking about the 'future updates' section, and more specifically about the bugs/minor tweaks, but also stuff like this thread...


OH, and as to the 'council' idea, why not have a graal voting day?
Seems like a good start to having the gameworld's own holidays instead of using real world holiday themes that get kind of touchy at times...  

Idea disapproved. 2 options. Go to Graal City and just sit there and chat useless ****, or tower for 40 days, get hat, move to next guild.  

I think a dedicated guild admin will greatly enhance our playing experience in terms of guild related issues, which basically is all there is about playing this game. A person who had played for sometime in graal without a guild is rare or possibly non existent. Being such a huge part of the game, it will be easy to assume that any properly managed staff team will dedicate members to take charge of it, however it seems like its not the case.

We need a guild admin, however i can forsee some underlying issues related to it.

First, graal should really get some real full time staff, (ie: an employee of the company) as opposed to getting players to be the admin managers. These people must not have interaction with players on a personal level but from a customer-business perspective. And they must be made available to the paying customers through a certain channel. This way it will ensure more impartiality, and being paid i believe they will be more motivated to do their work well. This is in direct contrast to letting a 10-18 year old kid volunteering into the staff team because he/she is easier to manage and in the end nothing gets done because the child just cannot handle that work. We can still keep the kids dressing up like koalas and pandas to be the GPs and events admins, but we really need real managers in charge of customer service and development. This i feel is sorely lacking in the game. Im pretty sure everyone, who has sent an email to the support team over a certain bug or problem has been disappointed at some point by their lack of responsiveness and professionalism, will agree with me.
Without a proper actual paid team doing the work, having a guild admin (even a good one) will be pretty impotent to improve the game. And if the guild admin is a player, we will also question his or her impartiality in doing the work right especially if he/she is a volunteer and not an impartial individual who is really hired (with real pay) by graal.

My points are 1: A guild admin is very important and necessary to make the game more enjoyable. 2: I dont think it is feasible or useful now until graal online classic sorts out its staff issues.

Just my thoughts.  

Posted by Dusty

If it makes you feel better, I have talked to Rufus about the concept of a "council" being created where a handful of very experienced guild leaders would be gathered and guild changes and the like would be discussed/planned out with their input. Rufus had the same idea as well, it would be a very good way to go about making changes to those aspects of the game while keeping in touch with what's best for the playerbase.

I don't necessarily like this idea. If you had just one group of people in charge of guilds you would have everything be changed so it would be in the favor of their own guilds. Also, I don't really see that great of guild leaders on graal any more. Many of the best tower leaders have already moved on and quit Graal, and probably don't have the time or devotion to focus on being in a council. And for many of the guild leaders that are towering, you would only make their ego bigger. In my eyes, a good leader isn't someone who has lead a lot of 1k guilds. That happens everyday. The people a part of the council would have to be truly good leaders.

You could also have two different parts of the council: one for towering/sparring and one for family guilds. But to prevent bias, you could put the most well known tower leaders in charge of family guilds, and vice versa, because I feel that if many of the guild leaders today were in charge of towering, everything would be beneficial only for their guilds. However, they would be able to give input and give ideas and such. I'm only suggesting this because I'm concerned about biased decisions and such.  

Posted by CM CM

I don't necessarily like this idea. If you had just one group of people in charge of guilds you would have everything be changed so it would be in the favor of their own guilds.

Well for one, they would not be "in charge" of guilds, they would be a consultation. Secondly, in what way could they suggest changes that would only benefit their guild? Either way, that's why there would be a council, rather than just one person. If one person tries to think selfishly, the other members would hopefully balance the scales against that.

Posted by CM CM

In my eyes, a good leader isn't someone who has lead a lot of 1k guilds.

I never said they would be chosen from leading a lot of 1k guilds.

Posted by CM CM

You could also have two different parts of the council: one for towering/sparring and one for family guilds. But to prevent bias, you could put the most well known tower leaders in charge of family guilds, and vice versa,

No, why would I want a player who has never towered and only had family/casual guilds deciding what changes will and will not happen to towers and competitive guilds? May as well just grab a random player as they'd have about as much expertise as them.

Posted by CM CM

However, they would be able to give input and give ideas and such. I'm only suggesting this because I'm concerned about biased decisions and such.

I think you're thinking too much into this. These players would not suddenly start ruling all the guilds and getting whatever they want added. They'll just be there for us to run ideas past them on how our ideas would negatively or positively effect guilds. We can't just revamp the entire guild system and not have player input, and consulting the entire playerbase would just be a waste of time.  

To prove my point further, i just designed a new Guild logo for my guild and uploaded it each time on my sub accounts as well as from accounts from my division leaders, every logo was approved until the 4th which was rejected for being 'inappropriate' because ive done it in a row you could almost read whats on the admin's mind. It probably says 'hey ive approved 3 of your same guilds logo now stop bothering me' Thats the sort of non professionalism thats going on, things definitely has changed for the better since 2001 when i last played, but it seems like the culture of admins acting on their whims and emotions still stayed. We didnt pay for anything in 2001 so its fine admins can act like gods, but now we are customers, shouldnt things change? If the admin is a paid staff on graal whose job is to approve stuff and make sure graal is developed and run properly the aforementioned will not happen.
A small issue like a guild logo can reflect on how the general state of affairs is like. The more we should really think about what graal is doing to improve the level of professionalism amongst its staff. If this is not rectified. i assure you in the long run graal classic is going to suffer, since it depends on the mature paying members to sustain it. The appointment (or lack of existence) of the guild admin is only one of the aspects depicting the terrible management or lack of management in the training of staff members. Of course if the devs are satisfied with graal remaining as a sub standard mmo run by unprofessional admins, then really ive got nothing more to say.

Im pretty sure im not the first person who has voiced this out. I hope the graal devs would sort it out.  

Posted by Wushen

To prove my point further, i just designed a new Guild logo for my guild and uploaded it each time on my sub accounts as well as from accounts from my division leaders, every logo was approved until the 4th which was rejected for being 'inappropriate' because ive done it in a row you could almost read whats on the admin's mind. It probably says 'hey ive approved 3 of your guilds logo now stop bothering me' Thats the sort of non professionalism thats going on, things definitely has changed for the better since 2001 when i last played, but it seems like the culture of admins acting on their whims and emotions still stayed. We didnt pay for anything in 2001 so its fine admins can act like gods, but now we are customers, shouldnt things change? If the admin is a paid staff on graal whose job is to approve stuff and make sure graal is developed and run properly the aforementioned will not happen.

Good one.  

Posted by Wushen

i assure you in the long run graal classic is going to suffer, since it depends on the mature paying members to sustain it.

The PC graal community and the iphone community are very different. That might have been the reason pc died, but ios is another story. ios graal continues to thrive because it feeds off 11-16 year olds that spend all their birthday money on itune cards. They rather buy gralats than work for them. They are also the ones bringing most of the new players through word-of-mouth. i dont think the mature members of the community impact ios graals profit that much.  

Thats a good point GOAT but I beg to differ, these kids wont play long after all, how many birthday itunes cards do they have before they start realising how crappy the game's management are. these kids will grow up and start giving bad reviews on the game. The bad reviews might potentially turn exponential and in the long run it will still hurt graal classic and graal online as a whole. Wasnt it basically dead before it came to IOS? are they repeating the same mistakes? Then again if they will turn a blind eye to it again then i am speechless, i am without speech.

PS: sorry demrow for hijacking your thread regarding terrible unprofessional admins but i believe if these are the same admins doing the guilds admin position then we are better off without a bloody unprofessional admin who is prone to act on emotions, self interests, or show of power. I remember the days when i was a kid with operator powers who kicked some guy on IRC channels 'because i could'. Seems like this is the case here.  

Posted by Wushen

To prove my point further, i just designed a new Guild logo for my guild and uploaded it each time on my sub accounts as well as from accounts from my division leaders, every logo was approved until the 4th which was rejected for being 'inappropriate' because ive done it in a row you could almost read whats on the admin's mind. It probably says 'hey ive approved 3 of your same guilds logo now stop bothering me' Thats the sort of non professionalism thats going on, things definitely has changed for the better since 2001 when i last played, but it seems like the culture of admins acting on their whims and emotions still stayed. We didnt pay for anything in 2001 so its fine admins can act like gods, but now we are customers, shouldnt things change? If the admin is a paid staff on graal whose job is to approve stuff and make sure graal is developed and run properly the aforementioned will not happen.
A small issue like a guild logo can reflect on how the general state of affairs is like. The more we should really think about what graal is doing to improve the level of professionalism amongst its staff. If this is not rectified. i assure you in the long run graal classic is going to suffer, since it depends on the mature paying members to sustain it. The appointment (or lack of existence) of the guild admin is only one of the aspects depicting the terrible management or lack of management in the training of staff members. Of course if the devs are satisfied with graal remaining as a sub standard mmo run by unprofessional admins, then really ive got nothing more to say.

Im pretty sure im not the first person who has voiced this out. I hope the graal devs would sort it out.

That isn't being unprofessional, that is you being a nuisance for no reason, also post the logo here I am interested to see what it is.  

Posted by reyalS

Although towering is still fairly active, it's one of the few things available year round. I still find towering entertaining because there's a social aspect that keeps me engaged. There's no doubt that guilds need a face lift. The problem, however, is lack of developers any a lot to do.

I agree that guilds could be built on. I was only commenting that there is no reason to call guilds irrelevant as if they currently have zero purpose.

Posted by GOAT

gst power teams, hat chasers, no-life tower guilds, 0 guild loyalty seem to be some of the reasons the guild system is looked down upon

Yes, but these are reasons for the guild system to be revamped (a development type project).

I guess Im still not understanding what this "Guild Admin" is supposed to do...  

Posted by twilit

Yes, but these are reasons for the guild system to be revamped (a development type project).

Well thats a matter of opinion. I dont think theres a right or wrong answer.

Posted by twilit

I guess Im still not understanding what this "Guild Admin" is supposed to do...

think about an events team, it would be similar but instead it would be like a guilds team. The guild admin would be the guy in charge of the team and their job would be directed towards guild activities/gameplay.(thats what im getting out of it but i might be wrong)  

It's all good Yushen, I've made that point before that when you have staff that are unpaid its makes them way less motivated to do anything and deal with a community that demands a lot. I'm sure there are good volunteer staff out there but without any incentive to improve the game it takes forever to accomplish anything.  

I don't think paying staff would help at all. In fact I think it would make things worse. Has anyone considered that a lot of the people playing Graal can't even legally have a job? Most Staff on iOS Graal seem to be between the ages of 13 - 16. And the ones that can have a job may not want to be paid. Most staff work on iOS servers because its fun or gives them some sort of hobby to do, a full time job changes things for them entirely, rather than being able to pursue their hobby at their own pace they have to start meeting the demands that an actual job would have.

And do you guys really think talented Developers with enough free time to work low wages for a small game will just appear when money is offered?

I really don't think anyone who believes paying staff will increase the productivity of them has given much thought to it.  

Posted by MrSimons

I don't think paying staff would help at all. In fact I think it would make things worse. Has anyone considered that a lot of the people playing Graal can't even legally have a job? Most Staff on iOS Graal seem to be between the ages of 13 - 16. And the ones that can have a job may not want to be paid. Most staff work on iOS servers because its fun or gives them some sort of hobby to do, a full time job changes things for them entirely, rather than being able to pursue their hobby at their own pace they have to start meeting the demands that an actual job would have.

And do you guys really think talented Developers with enough free time to work low wages for a small game will just appear when money is offered?

I really don't think anyone who believes paying staff will increase the productivity of them has given much thought to it.

Graal has a lot of potential. I would go as far as saying that it has just as much or more as Minecraft which is HUGE now.

Both games are very similar in age group of players, and adaptability in gameplay.

If I were a developer, scripter, GFXer right now, and they wanted to pay me, I would expect to be paid for individual projects instead of an hourly rate or wage. It adds a little incentive that I think most would embrace, and it would keep that "hobby" feeling.

If I were Stefan, I would find professionals or people with professional skills that were scripters, developers, gfxers who are interested in investing in a game with a lot of potential. Obviously by building up the game and making it into something comparable to clash of clans, or minecraft in popularity, these "low paid" employees would eventually make a killing off the in-game economy.

Another thing(that Wushen touched on) is that this game is no longer just a game, it's a business. It has customers that pay real money for in game "packs". The "13-16" year olds (as you claim) unpaid staff members , I really don't trust handling or running this business.

Anyone who doesn't believe finding skilled, payable employees to work on a game is ******ed as that is how most successful games are created, Mr simmons.